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Exercise-induced changes in cerebrospinal fluid miRNAs in Gulf War Illness, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and sedentary control subjects

Discussion in 'BioMedical ME/CFS Research' started by strategist, Nov 10, 2017.

  1. duncan

    duncan Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    As I recall, there were a couple fMRIs that participants had as part of the study protocol. I wonder if a second study from Baraniuk's team will be forthcoming more specific to the fMRI results.

    START appears to be simply POTS triggered by exercise - did any CFS subjects satisfy START requirements?

    Since we seem to share the same CSF values as controls, could what he be demonstrating is a new metric for at least a form of PEM (maybe two)? Afterall, the differences appear to have been triggered by exertion/exercise.
     
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  2. Estherbot

    Estherbot Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Another classic piece of insight from Simon Wessely in 2014 about GWS.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...hose-with-depression-there-would-9924174.html

    The article is chock full of deference to authority brown nosing. Enjoy!
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
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  3. TiredSam

    TiredSam Moderator Staff Member

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    How utterly fatuous. You could say the same thing about people who believe they have cholera. The fact that they know other people who have cholera (perhaps they all live near each other and get their water from the same well) is just a social factor. Any cluster outbreak of anything can be blamed on psychosocial factors in this way - it happens to people in the same vicinity at the same time, so a lot of them probably knew each other. Camelford? Obviously mass hysteria.
     
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  4. Sean

    Sean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    There is an arrogance and callousness in Wessely that is rare indeed.
     
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  5. alicec

    alicec Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    The authors seem to have done quite a bit of work on GWI and so probably feel more comfortable making comments about possible mechanisms in GWI, but I don't think these results say anything yet about pathophysiology. At best they give hints about areas which would be worth further investigation.

    Setting aside the question of criteria used to define the CFS group, the value of the study is the measurement of objective differences in CSF composition resulting from exercise challenge, both between patient groups and controls and among the different patient groups.

    Determining the significance of those differences will need a lot more study.

    As for the miRNAs being detected, this is a relatively new field and there is still a lot to learn about them.

    The authors choose to comment on the role of relatively few of those observed to change, presumably reflecting paucity of information.

    Two, miR-328 and miR-608, are diminished by exercise in all subjects (ie patients and controls), suggesting that these might play some general role in the effects of exercise on the brain. The latter targets cholinesterase.

    Three, miR-let-7i-5p, miR-93-3p and miR-200A-5p, are diminished after exercise in GWI and CFS patients but not in sedentary controls. The first one targets IL6 and contributes to regulation of acetylcholine receptors.

    Twelve miRNAs were uniquely diminished in CFS. They comment on only a few of these. miR-186-3p targets the enzyme which cleaves the amyloid protein precursor protein, miR-19b-3p targets the transcription factor STAT3 (both these may play some role in Alzheimers), miR-92a-3p targets the tumour suppressor gene BCL2L11 and miR-126-5p targets several adhesion molecules and so reduces transendothelial migration (which may be relevant to immune cell influx into the brain).

    These are simply observations, we can't yet draw any conclusions about mechanism.

    ETA Forgot to say the BCL2 family of proteins regulate apoptosis.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  6. Cheesus

    Cheesus Established Member

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    These must have been very mild patients. I have spanned a breadth of disease severity throughout the last 5 years, and at no point could I have sustained cycling at 70% of maximum age predicted heart rate for 25 minutes. Even at my best I would have been absolutely devastated by such a harsh exercise test; I can't imagine having attempted that without permanently destroying my health.

    So, if we're seeing these changes in patients that must be very mild, I wonder the extent of changes that might be seen in the remainder of the spectrum.
     
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  7. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Twenty-five minutes is a mighty session. Thanks to all the participants who took part in this.... hope it will lead on to something really useful.
     
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  8. TiredSam

    TiredSam Moderator Staff Member

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    30 minutes on an eliptical trainer at 70% three years ago is the last exercise I ever did. Took me well over a month to recover, and I don't think I've ever recovered to the point I was before that. According to my diary I could do a full day's work in my office in the weeks before that exercise, I'm lucky to do a couple of hours now, some days nothing at all.

    Since then I have flatly refused to get on an exercise bike for a cardiologist. No way would I do that again until they find the cure for ME. It would take weeks to recover and could set me back permanently.

    EDIT: And I'm mild.
     
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  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn Moderator Staff Member

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    I would've guessed extra spicy :emoji_smirk:
     
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  10. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Something we can all agree SW is supremely competent at.
     
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  11. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think of my wife as mild/moderate, and I'm absolutely certain she could get nowhere near this. 70% would be a real stress for her at best I think, even for a few seconds, and she would really pay for it. Trying to sustain it would, I'm sure, result in her rapidly winding down to much much less than 70% whilst still trying her best, and pay for it even more of course - perhaps dearly.
     
  12. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    seems we are not the only ones in the fanclub:
    https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/47b066_01d68b1309ae457b81df1e06e6beae1e.pdf
    p234 onwards Charge Sheet 7: Wessely, GWI & Somatoformia

    "the Pentagon hired Simon Wessely to not only trash the sick veterans, but people with ME/CFS, too"
     
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  13. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That looks like the sort of activism we want to stay far away from. A lot of the alternative Lyme stuff can be dodgy, and there you've also got anti-vaccination stuff, claims about MMR being linked with autism... this is the sort of thing used to discredit Wessely's critics.
     
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  14. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Basic question here: why do the sample sizes vary so much in the non-exercise and post-exercise groups? Are they completely different groups or was data missing for some? I thought everyone did exercise test? For example, "non-exercise" gulf war: n=22. Post-exercise, n=64 (22+42). For CFS, non-exercise group n=43; post-exercise, n=16.
     
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  15. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Got a response now elsewhere:
    Makes sense now I re-read abstract
    though I think the full text is more confusing
     
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  16. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Chronic fatigue syndrome is not imagined but a genuine illness: Study
    http://www.worldnews.easybranches.c...t-imagined-but-a-genuine-illness-study-435307

    Patients with Gulf War Illness, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Show Distinct Molecular Changes After Exercise
    By Traci Pedersen
    https://psychcentral.com/news/2017/...-molecular-changes-after-exercise/128630.html

    Brain chemistry study shows chronic fatigue syndrome, Gulf War illness as unique disorders
    http://www.psypost.org/2017/11/brai...drome-gulf-war-illness-unique-disorders-50162
     
  17. Mithriel

    Mithriel Established Member

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    A while ago, a US doctor did research on GWS which showed biomedical abnormalities. I can't remember the details but it was reported in the New Scientist. They had the usual "comment" from SW. They asked the American about his view that GWS was psychological and she said "Simon who?"

    I loved it :laugh:
     
  18. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  19. Arnie Pye

    Arnie Pye Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  20. large donner

    large donner Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    This is the kind of shit psychiatry was saying about homosexuality. Even aids didn't stop them making such stupidly reasoned claims.
     

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