Status
Not open for further replies.
Something else dawned on me about those lucky enough to have apparently recovered.

Whose to say that catching this virus isn't setting the scene for problems 10 or 15 years down the line? We just don't know enough about it to confidently say anything.

I hope I'm completely wrong, and I don't want to be alarmist, but if it's true (& we don't know) that EBV, for example, is a trigger for ME I caught & recovered from that at least 13 years before developing ME. It could be that it set the scene for a later virus, pathogen or set of triggers.

It isn't impossible that some of those, probably a small minority, may seem to have made a complete recovery & be fine until they meet another pathogen sometime in the future.
 
It seems when an illness is neglected/poorly understood by medicine, people feel license to treat their experience as True. Contrast this with “serious” diseases where people are aware there’s a range of severity—reinforced through knowledge of its worst manifestation—and so feel rightfully cautious about generalizing.

Something similar happens in the CFS subreddit with its generally less-informed user base and it makes me feel like I don’t belong there.
I was often struck by the list of things that many (not all) attributed to their survival/recovery including their own strength of character, supplements of choice, lifestyle changes of choice, alternative medicine of choice. Very little mention of the ££££££ in research, surgeons, specialist nurses etc.

Not only did they dictate what each other should be doing they extrapolated that to everyone else.... "Well, it cured me of cancer so, you know, if it cures cancer it is bound to be good for...."

Very alienating for those whose treatment isn't going well or those with conditions that haven't benefited from vast, well spent research funds.

Yes, and that’s why I really appreciate this forum. I think there’s something special here that I haven’t found on any other forum or on facebook (if there’s something similar on fb let me know..).

These things - what recovery means, what control groups are and why they’re so important, blinding & double blinding, and when experiences are subjective - what that means. Not that people are making things up, but it’s not as simple as - “they’ve recovered. that is the “right thing” to do. I didn’t do it. Now I have to try it...even though I’ve tried it I’m still ill and it’s my fault.” Or - “someone’s telling me to do this. I should do this”.

These things are talked about in a very careful way, and it’s helped put things into perspective for me as well over the last year. Also the very rigorous and careful discussion on pacing, what it means, deconditioning and the fact it can occur but also why it’s a product of the illness & it’s not my fault. I’ve learned so much. When I first became ill I wasn’t that involved in the ME community, I found it too overwhelming. Then when I had my first relapse, I wrote a few blog posts then took a step back again as I found it so hard that everyone had a different story & a different thing that helped them. And then I would hear of a different thing that made people worse. And then despite the thing that helped them, they sometimes said they got worse afterwards too anyway!

And for each, there would always be a few others that got better from that particular thing too. And things are just reported just as they are, which is probably understandable. With none of the caveats or reasoned or careful way of talking about it that is here, which helps me understand it more. I researched things like crazy, tried so many things, that took a lot of my energy.

I got contacted by someone who had read my blog, telling me they massaged a spot on their head and had a full recovery and that’s all I needed to do (!). I found it really hard to understand.. how could an illness be like this? But I understand it now, more... for a condition that doesn’t have treatment and has so little research, compared to other illnesses, it makes sense...also for a condition that genuinely does seem to wax and wane, often for no reason at all (and it seems to have happened to me), and we don’t even know what if any subgroups there are for ME.

But then now I’m slowly trying to get back into the ME community.. I’m still only half there as I find it overwhelming & I need time out often. But this forum helps me so much & I’m able to evaluate things in a different way now. And sometimes when I don’t and I feel confused..and when I start comparing myself to others.. I just come back here & feel better again.

(And I think I can honestly say if I hadn’t been reading this forum over the past year, especially since the focus and posting about very specific treatment/surgeries since last year, I would have been in a pit of fear and despair and confusion. I don’t think there’s anywhere else that is evaluating things the way this forum does. My science-y, maths-y mind is happy. I am grateful).
 
Last edited:
Yes, and that’s why I really appreciate this forum. I think there’s something special here that I haven’t found on any other forum or on facebook (if there’s something similar on fb let me know..).

These things - what recovery means, what control groups are and why they’re so important, blinding & double blinding, and when experiences are subjective - what that means. Not that people are making things up, but it’s not as simple as - “they’ve recovered. that is the “right thing” to do. I didn’t do it. Now I have to try it...even though I’ve tried it I’m still ill and it’s my fault.” Or - “someone’s telling me to do this. I should do this”.

These things are talked about in a very careful way, and it’s helped put things into perspective for me as well over the last year. Also the very rigorous and careful discussion on pacing, what it means, deconditioning and the fact it can occur but also why it’s a product of the illness & it’s not my fault. I’ve learned so much. When I first became ill I wasn’t that involved in the ME community, I found it too overwhelming. Then when I had my first relapse, I wrote a few blog posts then took a step back again as I found it so hard that everyone had a different story & a different thing that helped them. And then I would hear of a different thing that made people worse. And then despite the thing that helped them, they sometimes said they got worse afterwards too anyway!

And for each, there would always be a few others that got better from that particular thing too. And things are just reported just as they are, which is probably understandable. With none of the caveats or reasoned or careful way of talking about it that is here, which helps me understand it more. I researched things like crazy, tried so many things, that took a lot of my energy.

I got contacted by someone who had read my blog, telling me they massaged a spot on their head and had a full recovery and that’s all I needed to do (!). I found it really hard to understand.. how could an illness be like this? But I understand it now, more... for a condition that doesn’t have treatment and has so little research, compared to other illnesses, it makes sense...also for a condition that genuinely does seem to wax and wane, often for no reason at all (and it seems to have happened to me), and we don’t even know what if any subgroups there are for ME.

But then now I’m slowly trying to get back into the ME community.. I’m still only half there as I find it overwhelming & I need time out often. But this forum helps me so much & I’m able to evaluate things in a different way now. And sometimes when I don’t and I feel confused..and when I start comparing myself to others.. I just come back here & feel better again.

(And I think I can honestly say if I hadn’t been reading this forum over the past year, especially since the focus and posting about very specific treatment/surgeries since last year, I would have been in a pit of fear and despair and confusion. I don’t think there’s anywhere else that is evaluating things the way this forum does. My science-y, maths-y mind is happy. I am grateful).
I feel the same Luna.
 
How coronavirus can leave you suffering from insomnia and fatigue for months on end

With the initial Covid emergency ebbing, doctors and scientists are turning their attention to the longer-term health impacts of the virus

By Paul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON
4 July 2020 • 5:30pm
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...-leave-suffering-insomnia-fatigue-months-end/

A Hong Kong study of SARS survivors showed one in two had much poorer exercise capacity and health status after two years. Only 78% of were able to return to full‐time work 1 year after infection. Another study revealed that 40% of people recovering from SARS still had chronic fatigue symptoms 3.5 years after being diagnosed.
I felt it downplayed the ME/CFS-type effects a bit.
 
https://meassociation.org.uk/2020/0...al-fatigue-syndrome-with-dr-charles-shepherd/
BBC Spotlight: Covid-19 and Post-Viral Fatigue Syndrome with Dr Charles Shepherd
July 2, 2020


BBC Spotlight (South-West) featured a report last week that talked about people who had contracted Covid-19, survived the infection but had failed to fully recover their previous level of health.

Jenny Walrond, BBC Health and Science Correspondent, speaks with one woman whose functional improvement hasn’t materialised and says that thousands have joined social media sites to report a similar failure to recover.

BBC Spotlight Report on the Long-Term Effects of Covid-19 Infection (25 June 2020)
The ME Association is also hearing increasing reports about this ‘post-viral fatigue syndrome’ that also can include some of the symptoms believed to be unique to Covid-19 survivors such as continued breathing difficulties.


Free Leaflet: PVF and PVFS Following Covid-19 Infection.

The uncertainty surrounding recovery from this infection is something that we hope is being discussed within the NHS and Government, but pacing and self-management remain the only options for many people.

Dr Charles Shepherd, Hon. Medical Adviser, for the ME Association was interviewed for this broadcast and discusses the situation including whether there is a need for a ‘post-covid-fatigue-syndrome’.

He has been raising and discussing these real concerns with NICE, the Government and other medical professionals and considering what it might mean for the increasing prevalence of ME/CFS and the effect on health service provision.
 
Good Morning Britain
731K subscribers


Scientists want to ascertain whether "post-Covid syndrome" should be recognised as an illness in its own right as Covid-19 sufferers are reporting debilitating symptoms for weeks or months after recovery. A recent study has revealed that one in ten people are struggling to shake off Covid-19, many are experiencing crushing fatigue, breathlessness and brain fog longer than expected – in some cases leaving them bed-bound or unable to work full time.


One of the experts on is from the Advanced Wellbeing Research Centre ["Dedicated to improving the health & wellbeing of the population through innovations that help people move."]. I'd be suspicious they might recommend a biopsychosocial approach, but he doesn't say much during the interview.
 
Here's a Swedish news article (behind paywall) suggesting long-term covid-19 symptoms might be anxiety.

DN: "Långvariga covid-19-symtom kan vara ångestsyndrom – men det finns andra orsaker"
https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/l...-kan-vara-angestsyndrom-men-inget-vet-sakert/

Summary of the article by another news website:
Omni Google Translate said:
Researchers: Anxiety may be behind long-standing symptoms

Some of those who have covid-19 disease feel that they have symptoms for several months. Researchers are now working to find out why, reports DN.

In some cases, the explanation could be that the immune system reacts aggressively to the virus, the researchers believe. Other times, it may be due to underlying diseases that are activated as a consequence of the virus.

But the symptoms could also be based on psychological factors, according to Hans-Gustaf Ljunggren, professor of infectious medicine at the Karolinska Institute in Solna. He says there are people whose symptoms overlap with those found in patients with anxiety-related illnesses.

https://omni.se/forskare-angest-kan-ligga-bakom-langvariga-symtom/a/na8K95
 
Here's a Swedish news article (behind paywall) suggesting long-term covid-19 symptoms might be anxiety.

DN: "Långvariga covid-19-symtom kan vara ångestsyndrom – men det finns andra orsaker"
https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/l...-kan-vara-angestsyndrom-men-inget-vet-sakert/

Summary of the article by another news website:


But the symptoms could also be based on psychological factors, according to Hans-Gustaf Ljunggren, professor of infectious medicine at the Karolinska Institute in Solna. He says there are people whose symptoms overlap with those found in patients with anxiety-related illnesses.

Why make a statement like this at all?
It's totally unsubstantiated and just feeds into the narrative that symptoms without objective measurements of abnormalities are psychogenic in nature, eg. the unexplained is unexplainable is in your head...

But we know that Covid-19 is very real and it's becoming clearer every day now how many different symptoms the virus can cause (or perhaps the immune system in response to the virus) and how different the courses of disease are, both in length and severity. That patients can present with completely different symptoms and that not everyone has respiratory problems, cough or even fever.

That some people have symptoms that overlap with those that occur in anxiety related disorders doesn't say sqat. Many diseases have. It certainly doesn't say covid long hauler's symptoms are caused by anxiety. It could just as well be the other way around, some symptoms resemble the physical sensations that make up anxiety.

This again, why not just say: We don't know (yet) !
Because even if it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt down the road that a statement is wrong, the more times it has been repeated the more true it is believed to be, especially when uttered by an authority. As we all know just to well...

My mom and I are still having symptoms, so I guess we're long haulers now. Hooray! :wtf:
Her symptoms and mine differ in many ways, she lost her sense of taste, I didn't. She hasn't had respiratory problems or a cough, I have. We've both had heart palpitations, dizziness, nausea, GI problems and severe cognitive problems though (which could all occur with an anxiety related disorder). While I have experienced a lot of anxiety in my life, my mum has literally had anxiety once in her 77 year old life.

Sorry if I'm rambling, that statement just made me so angry, but my covid-brain is even worse than my ME-brain!
 
Garner says his symptoms are the same as chronic fatigue syndrome, with one difference – CFS is defined as not having a cause. “This clearly has a cause,” he says.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7322483/

CFS often has a cause/trigger that the patient can point to. It would be more accurate to say that CFS is often defined by doctors rejecting the cause that the patient reports because such long term consequences defy their expectations.
 
But the symptoms could also be based on psychological factors, according to Hans-Gustaf Ljunggren, professor of infectious medicine at the Karolinska Institute in Solna. He says there are people whose symptoms overlap with those found in patients with anxiety-related illnesses.
Therefore psychogenic?

No other plausible interpretation?

Nothing problematic with the way you define anxiety, for example?
 
Sounds like ME for sure

I'm afraid Garner is going to have to get rid of his notions of exceptionalism. His illness has a cause. CFS is defined by not having a cause. What then causes CFS?

It seems astonishing that, as an infectious diseases expert, he knows of nothing, other than Dengue Fever, capable of causing such symptoms. He has a little catching up to do. That may be a "long-haul" too.

On the point that he thinks his illness like CFS, except for it having a known cause it may help to quote the acknowledged experts,

"It must be emphasised that the link between these epidemics (causing ME) and modern CFS is largely historical. The two conditions were very different. Epidemic ME was contagious, acute and accompanied by paralysis and neurological signs (albeit of disputed origin). Sporadic CFS or ME, as seen today, is non -contagious, chronic, fatiguing, and has no neurological signs-we doubt whether any modern observer would consider a diagnosis of CFS in a patient requiring assisted ventilation. Hysteria is also a peripheral issue in most clinical encounters. Most of those affected by outbreaks of ME and related conditions do not fulfil criteria for CFS...

P132 Chronic Fatigue and its Syndromes , Wessely Hotopf and Sharpe

I hope that is clear. Any complaints should be addressed to the authors.
 
I'm afraid Garner is going to have to get rid of his notions of exceptionalism. His illness has a cause. CFS is defined by not having a cause. What then causes CFS?
It seems that this is what he was saying, that the definition of CFS is flawed because it clearly has a post-viral (or post-infectious, whatever) element and that becomes a problem when there actually is a clearly identified viral trigger.

Someone on Twitter made an excellent point: ME/CFS is not defined by not having a cause, it is defined by medicine rejecting its cause. The exact mechanism of cause-and-effect is still unexplained, because of deliberate sabotage and denial of resources, but it is the common element to most cases, it's completely unscientific to dismiss the obvious and yet here we are.

Just the same as HIV deniers may have various beliefs and opinions, they are defined by one and one thing only: they reject the actual cause of AIDS. It is fundamentally the same context, it is not the patients who don't have a cause, it is weird people deciding to arbitrarily reject it.
 
I'm afraid Garner is going to have to get rid of his notions of exceptionalism. His illness has a cause. CFS is defined by not having a cause. What then causes CFS?
It seems that this is what he was saying, that the definition of CFS is flawed because it clearly has a post-viral (or post-infectious, whatever) element and that becomes a problem when there actually is a clearly identified viral trigger.
I'm not convinced that's what he had in mind when he wrote articles like this:
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/05/0...ith-the-constantly-shifting-bizarre-symptoms/

But I'm hoping his views have developed since then?
 
It does seem odd that as an infectious diseases expert he had so little knowledge of ME/CFS/PVF/PVFS.

In denying the possibility of PVFS it is possible he was following the Ramsay interpretation of the post glandular fever PVFS as a constant, not variable, fatigue lasting up to 2 1/2 years. One would expect him to be starting from a much higher level of awareness. Perhaps this explains the problem we have.
 
It does seem odd that as an infectious diseases expert he had so little knowledge of ME/CFS/PVF/PVFS.

In denying the possibility of PVFS it is possible he was following the Ramsay interpretation of the post glandular fever PVFS as a constant, not variable, fatigue lasting up to 2 1/2 years. One would expect him to be starting from a much higher level of awareness. Perhaps this explains the problem we have.
There seems to be a thing like post-viral fatigue that is not much more than that. Garner said he experienced it a few times and other ID specialists said the same. Just a longer recovery but without the crippling onset of neurological and ANS symptoms. I think this is what they understand by it and why the visceral reaction of "it can't be that, this is way more serious".

It resembles the mildest cases of CFS and is probably that, the mildest end of the spectrum where the virus did not find its way into the nervous system. Whether it's the same thing or not would be pretty useful information but, you know, "business of rehabilitation" and all. Hence the major issue with keeping an entire spectrum that goes from "temporarily mildly limiting" to "slow and unbearable death" as being the same thing.

We could have known better. People chose otherwise. People with no stake in the matter and against the strong objection of those who paid for this failure with their lives. Decades of lies have piled up into a nice massive disaster. Just good old timey medicine, like they used to do back in the days when most people who visited a doctor died. Gotta keep some traditions alive...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom