ahimsa
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I agree, but I'd like to know the source for the quote.
Which person or organization claimed that this cognitive impairment was a type of dementia?
USA: The RECOVER Initiative - Long Covid research
- Thread starter rvallee
- Start date
Which person or organization claimed that this cognitive impairment was a type of dementia?
I did a double-take on that too. As Jo says, I don't think for a moment this relates to us. I suspect they're commenting there on the accelerated decline observed in pw Alzheimers [*]. The authors may be misunderstanding what was said or confused about the context and associated role of the US National Institute on Aging. If the authors are unaware of our type of variable cognitive dysfunction, they may naively be assuming that impaired cognition == neurodegeneration.
This is the entire passage —
[*] See eg Alzheimer Disease Patients Who Survived COVID-19 Have Rapid Disease Progression and a Higher Risk of Death at 5-year Follow-up: A Retrospective Cohort Study (2025)
This is the entire passage —
[*] See eg Alzheimer Disease Patients Who Survived COVID-19 Have Rapid Disease Progression and a Higher Risk of Death at 5-year Follow-up: A Retrospective Cohort Study (2025)
bicentennial
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Sadly, there was talk of neuro-psychiatric psychosis associated with Long Covid. "Alzheimers-associated" implies some pathological finding of neuro-degenerative disease.
But cognitive impairment does not mean dementia, except where someone was trained to assume that it is equivalent, which I found odd and ominous in the administrative procedure of an NHS sub-contractor.
But maybe if its "neuro-cognitive" and someone fuzzy wrote it up for Wes Ely's withdrawn immunomodulation trial at Vanderbilt University Medical Center:
ICH GCP
US Clinical Trials Registry
Clinical Trial NCT05858515
REVERSE-Long COVID-19 With Baricitinib Study (REVERSE-LC)
REVERSE-Long COVID: A Multicenter Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Clinical Trial of Immunomodulation (With Baricitinib) for Long COVID Related Cognitive Impairment and ADRD (Alzheimer's Disease and Related Dementias)
REVERSE-LC is a phase 3 trial of baricitinib versus placebo in adults with neurocognitive impairment (a form of Alzheimer's Disease and Related Dementias or ADRD) or cardiopulmonary symptoms due to Long COVID.
Status - Withdrawn
January 29, 2025 updated by: Wes Ely, Vanderbilt University Medical Center
Eligibility:
Meet the following criteria for "Post-COVID Condition" or Long COVID:
* Cognitive impairment as defined by having at least 20% positive (worse or much worse) items on the ECOG assessment
* Neurocognitive symptoms must have been present for at least 60 days prior to screening. Symptoms that wax and wane must have been initially present at least 60 days prior to screening.
Exclusion:
* Severe cognitive, physical, or psychological disability that would prevent participation in the study
Secondary outcomes (over a 9 month time-frame):
Everyday Cognition: Assess percentage changes of cognitive impairment using Everyday Cognition (ECog) scale in the baricitinib arm compared to the placebo arm from baseline to week 12
Global Neuropsychological Function: Assess percentage changes of global neuropsychological function as measured using the CNS Vital Signs Neurocognition Index cognitive battery between baricitinib and placebo study arm from baseline to week 12.
Post-Exertional Malaise: Assess percentage changes of post-exertional malaise using De Paul Symptom Questionnaire - Post-Exertional Malaise (DSQ-PEM) in the baricitinib arm compared to the placebo arm from baseline to week 12
Symptom Burden: Assess percentage changes of post COVID-19 symptom burden using the Symptom Burden Questionnaire for Long COVID (SBQ-LC) Circulation Subscale in the baricitinib arm compared to the placebo arm from baseline to week 12
Inflammation biomarkers: Decreases in plasma biomarkers of inflammation in the baricitinib arm compared to placebo arm from baseline to week 12
Viral Reservoirs: Decreases in viral reservoirs for the baricitinib arm compared to placebo arm from baseline to week 12
Etc:
And see below that the list of Long Covid clinical trials, in several countries, some now recruiting.
Edits: add link, remove boxes
But cognitive impairment does not mean dementia, except where someone was trained to assume that it is equivalent, which I found odd and ominous in the administrative procedure of an NHS sub-contractor.
But maybe if its "neuro-cognitive" and someone fuzzy wrote it up for Wes Ely's withdrawn immunomodulation trial at Vanderbilt University Medical Center:
ICH GCP
US Clinical Trials Registry
Clinical Trial NCT05858515
REVERSE-Long COVID-19 With Baricitinib Study (REVERSE-LC)
REVERSE-Long COVID: A Multicenter Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Clinical Trial of Immunomodulation (With Baricitinib) for Long COVID Related Cognitive Impairment and ADRD (Alzheimer's Disease and Related Dementias)
REVERSE-LC is a phase 3 trial of baricitinib versus placebo in adults with neurocognitive impairment (a form of Alzheimer's Disease and Related Dementias or ADRD) or cardiopulmonary symptoms due to Long COVID.
Status - Withdrawn
January 29, 2025 updated by: Wes Ely, Vanderbilt University Medical Center
Eligibility:
Meet the following criteria for "Post-COVID Condition" or Long COVID:
* Cognitive impairment as defined by having at least 20% positive (worse or much worse) items on the ECOG assessment
* Neurocognitive symptoms must have been present for at least 60 days prior to screening. Symptoms that wax and wane must have been initially present at least 60 days prior to screening.
Exclusion:
* Severe cognitive, physical, or psychological disability that would prevent participation in the study
Secondary outcomes (over a 9 month time-frame):
Everyday Cognition: Assess percentage changes of cognitive impairment using Everyday Cognition (ECog) scale in the baricitinib arm compared to the placebo arm from baseline to week 12
Global Neuropsychological Function: Assess percentage changes of global neuropsychological function as measured using the CNS Vital Signs Neurocognition Index cognitive battery between baricitinib and placebo study arm from baseline to week 12.
Post-Exertional Malaise: Assess percentage changes of post-exertional malaise using De Paul Symptom Questionnaire - Post-Exertional Malaise (DSQ-PEM) in the baricitinib arm compared to the placebo arm from baseline to week 12
Symptom Burden: Assess percentage changes of post COVID-19 symptom burden using the Symptom Burden Questionnaire for Long COVID (SBQ-LC) Circulation Subscale in the baricitinib arm compared to the placebo arm from baseline to week 12
Inflammation biomarkers: Decreases in plasma biomarkers of inflammation in the baricitinib arm compared to placebo arm from baseline to week 12
Viral Reservoirs: Decreases in viral reservoirs for the baricitinib arm compared to placebo arm from baseline to week 12
Etc:
And see below that the list of Long Covid clinical trials, in several countries, some now recruiting.
Edits: add link, remove boxes
Last edited:
bicentennial
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
bicentennial
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I think "Status: withdrawn" may mean its closed for further recruitment.
I think we need to know how a diagnosis of Alzheimers and its related dementias is confirmed. I don't trust psychological tests alone to diagnose such things. Too many overlaps and resemblances.
A neuro-cognitive impairment on top of a cognitive impairnent. 2 types of cognition measured by different tests.
No-one says the test subjects must be diagnosed with Alzheimers. But it is said that neuro-cognitive impairment due to Long Covid is a form of Alzheimers and its related dementias.
Neuro-cognitive impairment is being technically equated to Alzheimers and its related dementias - as if this type of impairment must be a neuro-degenerative disease.
So is this is a trial on Alzheimers and its dementias caused by Long Covid, as stated? Or is the neuro-cognitive impairment not necessarily degenerative?
Is Covid like a contact sport that can damage the brain? Prematurely? My government did not tell me that.
I'm confused too. I read the trial summary several times. The 2 versions of its title refer to LC lung problems, or some selected LC brain problems which both impair cognition and - it is said - degenerate nerves.
The Vanderbilt subjects must all have both brain problems. So another site must be trialling the drug on the lung problems.
The authors and readers of the commentary may not be aware that the selected Long Covid subjects suffer both cognitive and neurocognitive malfunction of the brain.
The selected neuro-cognitive impairment can be variable if it started to "wax and wane" at least 60 days ago. But all subjects must be mentally competent, nevertheless.
I didn't clarify that all the eligibility criteria must be met
It is Wes Ely's job to correct any published distortion of Vanderbilt's work, maybe also inform the public what is the difference between cognitive and neuro-cognitive impairments.
And give his public the 18+ age range of so-called LC "dementias". We hear that in the old countries, the other side of the Atlantic, people are doorstepping their doctors complaining of memory problems, and the paediatric Dutch Long Covid is doubled already.
The everyday cognition is measured by an Everyday Cognition (ECog) scale.
The neuro-cognition (equated to a neuro-degenerative disease), is measured by a neuro-psychological test - the CNS Vital Signs Neurocognition Index cognitive battery.
I don't know that neuro-science would agree with neuro-psychology. And neuro-psychiatry. It is neuro-psychology saying: if it looks like dementia then it must be a neuro-degenerative disease.
The autopsies could have resolved this except the trial accepts subjects with previous cognitve impairment - if its got worse since Covid:
What if its similar but not the same. With ME / CFS I've been told its not brain damage. How did who determine that Long Covid is liable to brain damage? Did anyone check? Its a dreadful thing to say if its not true. Or are they just trialling cases of Alzheimers which caught Long Covid.
Did Peluso say that, or did the reporter make the mistake or is it my mistake, as it looks like the cognitions are determined as a secondary outcome, whereas the primary outcomes are only safety, compliance, diversity and randomisation (not efficacy). Diversity heh, ssSSSHUSHhh.
I think we need to know how a diagnosis of Alzheimers and its related dementias is confirmed. I don't trust psychological tests alone to diagnose such things. Too many overlaps and resemblances.
A neuro-cognitive impairment on top of a cognitive impairnent. 2 types of cognition measured by different tests.
No-one says the test subjects must be diagnosed with Alzheimers. But it is said that neuro-cognitive impairment due to Long Covid is a form of Alzheimers and its related dementias.
Neuro-cognitive impairment is being technically equated to Alzheimers and its related dementias - as if this type of impairment must be a neuro-degenerative disease.
So is this is a trial on Alzheimers and its dementias caused by Long Covid, as stated? Or is the neuro-cognitive impairment not necessarily degenerative?
Is Covid like a contact sport that can damage the brain? Prematurely? My government did not tell me that.
I'm confused too. I read the trial summary several times. The 2 versions of its title refer to LC lung problems, or some selected LC brain problems which both impair cognition and - it is said - degenerate nerves.
The Vanderbilt subjects must all have both brain problems. So another site must be trialling the drug on the lung problems.
The authors and readers of the commentary may not be aware that the selected Long Covid subjects suffer both cognitive and neurocognitive malfunction of the brain.
The selected neuro-cognitive impairment can be variable if it started to "wax and wane" at least 60 days ago. But all subjects must be mentally competent, nevertheless.
I didn't clarify that all the eligibility criteria must be met
It is Wes Ely's job to correct any published distortion of Vanderbilt's work, maybe also inform the public what is the difference between cognitive and neuro-cognitive impairments.
And give his public the 18+ age range of so-called LC "dementias". We hear that in the old countries, the other side of the Atlantic, people are doorstepping their doctors complaining of memory problems, and the paediatric Dutch Long Covid is doubled already.
The everyday cognition is measured by an Everyday Cognition (ECog) scale.
The neuro-cognition (equated to a neuro-degenerative disease), is measured by a neuro-psychological test - the CNS Vital Signs Neurocognition Index cognitive battery.
I don't know that neuro-science would agree with neuro-psychology. And neuro-psychiatry. It is neuro-psychology saying: if it looks like dementia then it must be a neuro-degenerative disease.
The autopsies could have resolved this except the trial accepts subjects with previous cognitve impairment - if its got worse since Covid:
What if its similar but not the same. With ME / CFS I've been told its not brain damage. How did who determine that Long Covid is liable to brain damage? Did anyone check? Its a dreadful thing to say if its not true. Or are they just trialling cases of Alzheimers which caught Long Covid.
Did Peluso say that, or did the reporter make the mistake or is it my mistake, as it looks like the cognitions are determined as a secondary outcome, whereas the primary outcomes are only safety, compliance, diversity and randomisation (not efficacy). Diversity heh, ssSSSHUSHhh.