Paul Garner on Long Covid and ME/CFS - BMJ articles and other media.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I note Jon Stone is talking. If I remember rightly he is in Edinburgh.
Might be a bit of a local disagreement brewing up north then?
That biomedical Ponting chap and all that.

 

[MSEsperanza]

Older forum posts on SIRPA:

SIRPA (Stress Illness Recovery Practitioners’ Association)

This course is based on the theories of John Sarno/Howard Schubiner. That "emotional trauma causes your chronic pain" crap. (As mentioned in my above post.)

It's run by a UK physiotherapist, and says it is for health professionals.

https://sirpa-training-school.thinkific.com/courses/level-1-sirpa-introductory-course

The usual testimonial from a CFS patient;

https://www.sirpa.org/project/john-doe/

There's an - expensive - online course targeted at patients with chronic pain too;

https://sirpa-training-school.thinkific.com/courses/sirpa-online-recovery-programme

Just stumbled (again) across the Psychophysiologic Disorders Association (PPDA) and how they use their[*] study discussed here as "proof" to promote their hypothesis and treatment recommendations for a "mindbody approach" -- and are proud that the 'UnitedHealth' Group seem to be interested in their expertise.

Now saw that it was already discussed here:



And thought I'll add the text of the screenshot and leave some links here, both to forum threads and other links.

Text from the screenshot posted by Hutan:

Changing the healthcare paradigm

"UnitedHealth Group, the world’s largest healthcare company, asked PPDA Co-Founder Dr. Howard Schubiner to consult on model pain clinics with a team of physicians, physician’s assistants, nurse practitioners, physical therapists and mental health providers, all trained in mindbody medicine. Christie Uipi led the behavioral health team.

"It’s incredibly exciting and challenging to put our ideas into a real-world clinic, and this wouldn’t have happened without the support of PPDA donors who helped us to sponsor the clinical trial (above).

https://ppdassociation.org/about

More links:

"The Boulder Back Pain Study - Proof that a psychological approach can cure chronic pain"

https://mytmsjourney.com/resources/...psychological-approach-can-cure-chronic-pain/

....and in the UK:

They are also supporters of the SIRPA conference (SIRPA = "Stress Illness Recovery Practitioners’ Association, the first group in the UK & Europe to adopt the TMS approach to chronic pain") :

https://www.sirpaconference.com/supporters/

SIRPA website:
https://www.sirpa.org/

More about Schubiner who's both on PPDA's board of directors and acts as SIRPA's research adviser:

SIRPA's startpage:

[/QUOTE]

 

[Utsikt]

For context because Garner is referred to as «she» in the auto translate of the Finnish article:

Finnish doesn’t use gender for personal pronouns, it’s all hän.

 

[Turtle]

Finnish doesn’t use gender for personal pronouns, it’s all hän.

Thanks for your correction @Utsikt, I've deleted my post. I posted too fast, too furious. I apologize.

 

[Utsikt]

Thanks for your correction @Utsikt, I've deleted my post. I posted too fast, too furious. I apologize.

No worries. I’ve edited the post to remove your comment as well.

 

[Yann04]

Thanks for your correction @Utsikt, I've deleted my post. I posted too fast, too furious. I apologize.

Totally understandable.
It’s hard to resist throwing those low punches (metaphorically, not advocating violence) when you know these people have surely lead to countless preventable deaths.

 

[MrMagoo]

He’s screaming into an echo chamber which is becoming a void and his relevance is decreasing

 

[Sean]

Garner is increasingly doing more damage to his own reputation with his shrill 'look at me' act than he could do to his critics. I almost (almost) feel sorry for him at times.

 

[Trish]

I hope you're right. At the moment it seems more like they are winning, with things like Cochrane giving in to them over the exercise review and the BMJ publishing them.

 

[InitialConditions]

I found this interesting, from his valedictory lecture in 2022. I have clipped it from the full recording.

Paul Garner's love of controvery and media appearances

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxu6OQZGGA4E5wZxc8sMUhCnFz95T9-y3f?si=k6LZsIC_SUfheRwT

 

[rvallee]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1923748807742828650

Preaching to his choir:

Once we have ruled out physically damaging conditions such as cancer and autoimmune diseases, most cases of persistent or recurring/chronic pain are caused by the brain rather than something wrong with the part of the body that hurts. We now understand that the brain can learn to do this as a way of protecting us from unresolved emotional turmoil, past or present. This is sometimes referred to as a ‘maladaptive stress response’.

Ducks quacking in rows.

 

[rvallee]

Garner contacted the university and the police. They took the matter seriously. Interpol also got involved. Support also came from colleagues.

Interpol is an international law enforcement organization that works with major cross-border crimes. They're not even technically a police force (in the sense of having badged agents with guns), they coordinate at the national level between police forces when crimes cross jurisdictions, basically a bureaucracy. Not letters of complaints, not just regular crimes, major crimes.

They don't deal in petty stuff like this, they handle cartels, major trafficking rings, terrorists, etc. This is such an egregious lie, he may just as well have said that he won 4 Nobel prizes for his work but they're just being held up by paperwork, and it's completely unserious for a professional publication to publish the ramblings of a mad person.

 

[rvallee]

Paul Garner is interviewed in an article about doctors and patient activists in the journal for the Finnish Medical Association.

google translation: In the teeth of activists

quote:
What to do if you find yourself caught in the teeth of activism?

Garner contacted the university and the police. They took the matter seriously. Interpol also got involved. Support also came from colleagues.

– Stay strong. Get off social media. Ask for help from the organization and try to find support from others who have a similar view. The goal is to isolate the person from the group and silence them. Don't care about them. Stick to your message and continue communicating.

Good grief these people are so small and petty.

Helena Liira, chief physician at Husi and docent at the University of Helsinki, has similar experiences.

She came under fire from patient activists four years ago when she was researching the effectiveness of psychological treatments for chronic fatigue syndrome.

– I received messages asking how you can investigate something like this.

– I don't watch the debate anymore, but my children, for example, suffer from it, Liira says.

Activists have requested memos about the processes Liira is involved in at the university hospital. In addition, there are letters and complaints that the clinic has to respond to. They're seriously complaining about a clinic having to respond to letters and make it all seem like we are basically terrorists. Good fucking grief.

She received messages asking simple questions and complaints. All proper stuff. And it's presented like they actually got bombs in the mail. What a bunch of dishonest charlatans.

No effect

The harassment has made Liira consider that there are easier research topics. She will continue her work and publish her results.

The worst consequence for Garner has been that he no longer wants to get his publications published in newspapers.

– The newspapers are afraid, he says.

Although the harassment has since subsided, it has not ended.

– Every time I post something, there are reactions like “he’s still psychologizing this thing,” Garner says.

The pressure has not affected Kaltiala's work.

So, literally, nothing happened to them other than people disagree with them, accurately so. This is completely inoffensive given how offensive their claims are. Their entire basis for complaining is that people don't agree with them. And they write an article about it making this about threats. What a freaking scam this is.

Remember how it all happened with Wessely's gang:

1. For years they made claims of death threats, of being mailed bombs and feeling so threatened that being in (a safe compound in) a war zone felt safer
2. Then it was complaints of harassment, of receiving complaints, of having people correct their lousy papers
3. Then it was being trolled on the Internet
4. Now it's basically "people disagree with us, wah-wah! not fair, WAAAAAHH!"

And here it's basically a quick re-hash of all this, but any serious reader would focus on how it's just petty complaints about their perceived wisdom not being given its proper place among the likes of general relativity and evolution as scientific theories.

Pathetic. I don't mind pathetic people, but how do otherwise serious professionals look at this and not see how completely pathetic these people are?

 

[MrMagoo]

Interpol is an international organization that works with major cross-border crimes. They don't deal in petty stuff like this, they handle cartels, major trafficking rings, terrorists, etc. This is such an egregious lie, he may just as well have said that he won 4 Nobel prizes for his work but they're just being held up by paperwork.

Maybe they were involved to some extent….

I sadly once worked with someone who contacted interpol regarding what they believed to be a fraudulent sick note from an overseas clinic. Their involvement was to very politely tell him this isn’t their remit. I can only hope it gave them a good laugh, I still feel mortified at the thought. Also the sick note was later validated by the High Commission for the country, it wasn’t even fake.

so you see, I too had an incident at work where interpol got involved.

I didn’t realise Paul was such a disruptor, getting kicked out of youth club for asking them to let the kids from the secondary modern to join! Always speaking the truth, that was quite the transcript.

 

[Yann04]

Yeah I don’t think it’s impossible that interpol participated. As long as it’s some elite who upholds the system I wouldn’t be extremely suprised if interpol would take claims of death threats seriously.

 

[NelliePledge]

He’s not even original is he
Next he will be showing photos of mocked up messages using cut up newspapers
Using someone accidentally dropping a coffee cup at a seminar as ‘evidence’ of harassment
Or claiming to have had to send a cease and desist letter

 

[Utsikt]

If a death threat was made from abroad against a public official, I wouldn’t be surprised if Interpol somehow got involved. It could possibly fall under their anti-terrorism focus. Or simply facilitating cross-border police co-operation.

 

[Yann04]

So, literally, nothing happened to them other than people disagree with them, accurately so. This is completely inoffensive given how offensive their claims are. Their entire basis for complaining is that people don't agree with them. And they write an article about it making this about threats. What a freaking scam this is.

Had to make a low quality meme

 

[Lidia Thompson]

I have just seen a very disturbing post from a Jenny Wilson on Dr HNG's Facebook page:

"Yesterday, I read Prof Paul Garner's tweet that if only Dr Miller had been able to give Maeve CBT she would have lived!
Today he is lecturing at King's College, London.
Here is one of his slides."

 

[Utsikt]

I have just seen a very disturbing post from a Jenny Wilson on Dr HNG's Facebook page:

"Yesterday, I read Prof Paul Garner's tweet that if only Dr Miller had been able to give Maeve CBT she would have lived!
Today he is lecturing at King's College, London.
Here is one of his slides."

Does anyone have a source for that claim about Miller and Maeve?

And do we know that he is giving the same presentation at KC?