1. Guest, the 'News in Brief' for the week beginning 22nd February 2021 is here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Welcome! To read the Core Purpose and Values of our forum, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

Neurophysiology of pain in ME and FM - unpublished study by White and Bourke - CFS research Foundation/AfME

Discussion in 'BioMedical ME/CFS Research' started by obeat, Oct 7, 2018.

  1. obeat

    obeat Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    598
    Likes Received:
    4,282
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2018
  2. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,546
    Likes Received:
    44,344
    Location:
    UK West Midlands
    Maybe ask Clare Ogden on here why you’ve not had a response - she is their comms lead and has their account here ‘@Action_for_ME’
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2018
  3. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,953
    Likes Received:
    32,135
    That's the one where they gave money to Peter White, isn't it? https://www.actionforme.org.uk/reso...ology-of-pain-in-me-study-about/?c=c_db&f=178

    It seems possible that some people were taking advantage of the CFS Research Foundation in the final years of Faulkner's life. It certainly seemed to change its tone on certain things.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2018
  4. obeat

    obeat Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    598
    Likes Received:
    4,282
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  5. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    12,363
    Likes Received:
    51,050
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Huh?

    I can't make out from the report what they actually did to find this clear and validated evidence.

    (For those of you like me with no idea what temporal summation is: "Temporal Summation is a CNS condition, which demonstrates an increase perception of pain to repetitive painful stimuli.")

    Wasn't there a recent study that didn't really find any significant differences between how people with and without CFS experienced pain, even though the researchers were clearly trying very hard to find some?


    Part 2 of the study, using fMRIs, appears to have been a totally unmitigated flop.

     
    andypants, Inara, MEMarge and 4 others like this.
  6. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,286
    Likes Received:
    16,518
    So questionnaires again? And this is being touted as 'clear and validated evidence'.
     
  7. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    12,363
    Likes Received:
    51,050
    Location:
    New Zealand
    No, I don't think it was questionnaires. I think it was more like
    A. someone stabbing the patient with a sharp object, over and over again and asking if the pain was getting worse or better.

    B. And then applying very cold water to one part of the patient's body for a long time while repeating A.

    but then I'm speculating.
     
  8. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,286
    Likes Received:
    16,518
    Ah. I read QST as yet another flawed questionnaire.

    So the pain was self-reported? But they were unable to see any meaningful difference on fMRI to indicate central sensitisation objectively?
     
  9. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,643
    Likes Received:
    17,967
    Location:
    Australia
    They just quoted p values, no effect sizes or actual data, and no underlying methodology so it's hard to say what they actually measured.
     
    MEMarge, Snowdrop, Hutan and 3 others like this.
  10. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,714
    Likes Received:
    11,088
    Where was it shown that a QST shows central senzitation?

    How exactly? Where's the evidence?

    Isn't that normal? I remember as a child, if someone beat me repeatedly on a certain place it hurt more. I think it's quite normal.
     
  11. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,714
    Likes Received:
    11,088
    Yes, a QST is subjective in the sense that you rate the pain you feel (or don't feel) via numbers of 0 to 100. But it's also objective in some parts. A QST is standardized.

    First, your perception of cold and hot and your ability to distinguish warm from cold is tested. For this, a machine through which water gets pumped with a plate is put on the hand and then foot. Then the plate gets warm (up to 50°) and cold (down to 5°) very fast. This is objective in the sense that the tester knows when the plate is warm or cold, and if you say "cold" when it's actually warm it shows - if you don't cheat - that you have a problem.

    Then you have to say at which point of warm or cold you feel pain. It's normal to feel too low or high temperatures as pain. This is subjective in a way. There are normal ranges.
    For me, at 50° I started to feel pain, and 5° weren't painful at all.

    The test goes on with little "needles" which are punched with a standardized force into the hand and foot. (For me, this was absolutely not painful.) Regarding pain, the rating is subjective. You have to distinguish during this test if a needle is pointed or flat. This, again, is objective.

    In the last part of the test it's about pain rating alone. Objects like a q-tip, brush, needles are put on the hand and foot in a certain order and you have to say how painful that is for you. Here's also the "repeated punch leads to pain test". For me, this was barely/not painful and some needles I couldn't feel at all.
     
    lunarainbows, MEMarge, Hutan and 2 others like this.
  12. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,286
    Likes Received:
    16,518
    Perfect, thanks. So how does this show central sensitisation, rather than, say, peripheral neuropathy?
     
  13. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,714
    Likes Received:
    11,088
    That was my question in post #10. The QST is used to diagnoze Small Fiber Neuropathy (as one part of it). I would be interested in knowing if there's evidence for a correlation between QST and central sensitisation. It's just a guess - there is no evidence.
     
    MEMarge, lunarainbows, Wonko and 5 others like this.
  14. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,286
    Likes Received:
    16,518
    I realise I replied to you, but that was a general question--and rather a rhetorical one, at that.
     
    MEMarge, Wonko, Inara and 1 other person like this.
  15. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,714
    Likes Received:
    11,088
    Oops. :)
     
    MEMarge and Wonko like this.
  16. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,286
    Likes Received:
    16,518
    No need to apologise :)
     
    MEMarge, Inara and Wonko like this.

Share This Page