Journal of Medical Ethics - Blog: It’s Time to Pay Attention to “Chronic Fatigue Syndrome” (2019) O'Leary

However, if I were to ask people who I consider really authoritative, and likely to give an honest answer, which might include James Baraniuk, Luis Nacul, Chris Ponting, Simon McGrath and some other members here, I am not sure that they would rate the IOM statement that highly.

I just received a letter Baraniuk is sending around voicing what appears to be his dissatisfaction with the SEID/CFS "amalgamation" and its import to GWI, and an apparent VA proposal to replace CFS in GWI patients with SEID/CFS .

I am unclear what he is concerned about other than (I think) SEID/CFS appears to be a combination of the 2015 IOM entity with the 1994 Fukuda criteria. The amalgamation has not been validated in VA patients, the amalgamation is not evidenced-based, and he is concerned with the VA's role in its implementation.

I think he is displeased SEID/CFS may supplant CFS in VA GWI patients in what he characterizes as a retrogressive and arbitrary move, should it be allowed to happen.
 
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Peter White got some of the last guidelines changed. The original wording was about using wheelchairs but he said that aids would only confirm patients in their faulty belief that they actually had a disease. I think he complained about a few things with that reasoning.

It is a clear example of restricting our access to medical care, if a person with MS and the same degree of difficulty walking would be referred by a GP.

In fact, since we know that OI is caused by standing and the CPET testing and other work has shown we have a problem with exertion then people with ME should be given wheelchairs as a preventative measure instead of being denied them.

Per Fink has stated that people with ME should not get benefits as keeps patients sick. There are definite ethical problems here.

Some examples of what he said can be read here:
A Selection of points the Barts CF Service made during the NICE Guidelines for CFS / ME: Tom Kindlon
https://meagenda.wordpress.com/2007...g-the-nice-guidelines-for-cfs-me-tom-kindlon/
 
I just received a letter Baraniuk is sending around voicing what appears to be his dissatisfaction with the SEID/CFS "amalgamation" and its import to GWI, and an apparent VA proposal to replace CFS in GWI patients with SEID/CFS .

I am unclear what he is concerned about other than (I think) SEID/CFS appears to be a combination of the 2015 IOM entity with the 1994 Fukuda criteria. The amalgamation has not been validated in VA patients, the amalgamation is not evidenced-based, and he is concerned with the VA's role in its implementation.

I think he is displeased SEID/CFS may supplant CFS in VA GWI patients in what he characterizes as a retrogressive and arbitrary move, should it be allowed to happen.


Related threads:

A Proposed Rule by the Veterans Affairs Department on 02/05/2019 (US format - UK format 05/02/2019)


https://www.s4me.info/threads/a-pro...-05-2019-us-format-uk-format-05-02-2019.8056/


USA - NCHS/CDC Proposal for ICD-10-CM - adding SEID


https://s4me.info/threads/usa-nchs-cdc-proposal-for-icd-10-cm-adding-seid.5929/
 
Some examples of what he said can be read here:
A Selection of points the Barts CF Service made during the NICE Guidelines for CFS / ME: Tom Kindlon
https://meagenda.wordpress.com/2007...g-the-nice-guidelines-for-cfs-me-tom-kindlon/
SH St Bartholomew’s Hospital Chronic Fatigue Services 85 FULL 229 6.4.5.5
“…gut anti-spasmodics…” are not treatments of CFS/ME since bowel symptoms are not part of CFS/ME
It is one of the most reported symptoms. People who literally do not know what a disease is about cannot be considered competent, let alone experts. These people are completely out of their depth here, they're interested in creating reality, not understanding it.

I read the cited comments. They are literally all wrong. All of it. They know nothing of this disease, insisting that their imagined perception is more reliable than what patients experience, disputing the very existence of common symptoms. It's really astounding incompetence. They reject reality and substitute their own.
 
It is one of the most reported symptoms. People who literally do not know what a disease is about cannot be considered competent, let alone experts. These people are completely out of their depth here, they're interested in creating reality, not understanding it.

I read the cited comments. They are literally all wrong. All of it. They know nothing of this disease, insisting that their imagined perception is more reliable than what patients experience, disputing the very existence of common symptoms. It's really astounding incompetence. They reject reality and substitute their own.
And the thing about this is that this was a service set up to serve people with ME/CFS. They were supposed to be helping the patients.

Before there was an embargo on discussions about the Chief Medical Officer's working group in the UK a few years earlier, I heard that Peter White was similarly making some quite outrageous redrafts along these lines.

A lot of people complain about Simon Wessely but in the 2000s, I think Peter White was more important. He was also close to Bill Reeves in the CDC; the CDC, according to their draft 5 year plan that came out in around 2009, were even planning to run trials are graded exercise therapy, CBT and the like. Things have improved so much in the CDC since then.
 
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Some examples of what he said can be read here:
A Selection of points the Barts CF Service made during the NICE Guidelines for CFS / ME: Tom Kindlon
https://meagenda.wordpress.com/2007...g-the-nice-guidelines-for-cfs-me-tom-kindlon/

Those responses make my blood boil and clearly show whites “unhelpful beliefs”. His query along the line “why should a person with concentration difficulties find listening over reading easier ... Could not the patient just do simple graded reading” is another nugget of sheer blind stupidity. I personally find for factual information reading better but This ties in nicely with a current discussion on ME Association Facebook about reading. Most people who’ve replied state severe difficulties with reading books etc and many state a preference for audiobooks. Peter white has a massive plank of prejudice in his brain causing serious perception issues and he clearly goes beyond concerns about maintaining function as much as possible for welfare regarding wheelchairs due to his fanaticism about CFS, plus in ME the primary concern should be to reduce over exertions which is not even on PWs radar. It’s just scary how much influence he’s had when he, due to his illness model, is driven by his own beliefs and deaf to the patient experience and when he says moderate disability should never get a wheelchair...

I thought that this comment was ironic given the PACE trial outcomes
“SH St Bartholomew’s Hospital Chronic Fatigue Services 75 FULL 188 6.3.6.16
These goals should include recovery, not just exercise and activity goals. If it takes “years” to achieve goals, then either the goals are wrong or the therapy is wrong. What other treatment in medicine would take years to work? We suggest “or even years” is deleted. If a therapy is not helping within a few months, either the therapy or the diagnosis or both should be reviewed and changes considered. We suggest that this advice is pertinent to all treatment approaches, not just for GET.”
 
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@Esther12

Good point about informed consent. And, I would emphasize thoroughly informed consent.

Anyone ever notice you aren't readily advised of the downsides of a procedure?

For example, length of time to heal from a surgical procedure - anyone told a more
optimistic number, then with follow up told it usually takes a fair bit longer for most people?

Paternalistic? Not wanting to scare patients off? Trying to reassure, or downplay the ramifications of some treatment

Thanks to the Internet there are good sites which can inform when medical pros don't. But, sometimes more complex issues just can't be covered on websites.

The paternalistic attitude used to exclude
patients' access to their medical files, at least in my country. Patients never used to have a right to copies of tests, letters etc.

I think you're right about physicians not seeing the problems with GET and CBT for ME. They would just view it as another
colleague correctly and ethically administering a curative treatment.

This comradeship is fostered in med schools which helps develop future good working relationships. However, patients as Other, don't have much hope of having legitimate complaints heard.
 
I thought that this comment was ironic given the PACE trial outcomes
“SH St Bartholomew’s Hospital Chronic Fatigue Services 75 FULL 188 6.3.6.16
These goals should include recovery, not just exercise and activity goals. If it takes “years” to achieve goals, then either the goals are wrong or the therapy is wrong. What other treatment in medicine would take years to work? We suggest “or even years” is deleted. If a therapy is not helping within a few months, either the therapy or the diagnosis or both should be reviewed and changes considered. We suggest that this advice is pertinent to all treatment approaches, not just for GET.”

Yes, I thought the claim about recovery was interesting. He couldn't, for example, claim that there wasn't enough time in the PACE Trial to obtain recovery given what he wrote there.

I decided to draw attention to the comment in my 2011 paper

Beyond merely showing compliance with interventions, objective measures can also test the claims that CBT and GET have been shown to lead to recovery in CFS (175,176) – indeed that recovery should be seen as an achievable goal in months rather than years (177).

(175) Knoop H, Bleijenberg G, Gielissen MF, van der Meer JW, White PD. Is a full recovery possible after cognitive behavioural therapy for chronic fatigue syndrome? Psychother Psychosom. 2007;76:171-6.
(176) Physiotherapy. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/ME Service at St. Bartholomew's Hospital. http://www.bartscfsme.org/physiotherapy.htm. Accessed December 24, 2007.
(177) St Bartholomew's Hospital Chronic Fatigue Services submission. National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence CFS/ME consultation draft 29 September – 24 November 2006 Comments on chapter 6 on the draft NICE guidelines on CFS/ME. 2007:308. http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/11630/36186/36186.pdf . Accessed September 16, 2011

https://iacfsme.org/PDFS/Reporting-of-Harms-Associated-with-GET-and-CBT-in.aspx
 
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Paternalistic? Not wanting to scare patients off? Trying to reassure, or downplay the ramifications of some treatment

I think it might be even simpler than that. Presenting an optimistic 'everything's gonna be alright' people IMO will have fewer questions and therefore the MD can avoid answering things and move on quicker saving time and bother.

By presenting the best outcome they are not lying,they're just not telling the whole truth. So that's OK then. <sarcasm>
 
@Snowdrop, good point.

Worst case scenarios would logically create more questions, and use up more time.

I had the odd experience of asking what I thought was a logical question about a health issue that had a good chance of being life threatening. When I asked if the problem was potentially life threatening, the answer was something to the effect of "You do ask difficult questions." So.... the rule seems to be, even if there's a good chance you will die from something being investigated, don't ask if you might die from it.
 
Yes, ideology.

And, because ideology not biomedical science has guided treatment of ME, perhaps this is another reason to replicate studies on basic issues about ME: OI, PEM, immune dysfunction, etc.

Although for many pwME, including myself, this feels like it may be a waste of time because the IOM/NAM has reviewed some 9000
papers, and found sufficient evidence for the above noted issues. When is there enough evidence for those with open minds? I doubt there will ever be enough biomedical proof for the PS group.
 
Aside from "recovery/improvement stats" for the PACE trial, and others of the same ilk, plus "cfs" clinic stats for "success", are UK government departments tallying return to work/school for pwME after GET/CBT treatment?

What about other countries that support or supported the GET/CBT theory for ME? Where are the US, and Canadian stats? The European numbers? How about Australia? Africa?

Can health departments and ministries easily point to the number of successes from these treatment? If there are numbers available, are these organizations able to prove real success? Are these pwME back at work or school, and leading normal lives?

If GET and CBT are supposedly so successful, where are these large numbers? Where are these countries' reports? Where are the reports from physicians and other health professionals that these "therapies" help pwME get their old lives back? By now, shouldn't pwME numbers "benefiting" from GET/CBT be in the thousands to millions world-wide? Where is the solid information on this? Not anecdotal, methodologically flawed, ideologically driven numbers.

Where are the real stats on these two "therapies" for pwME - the hard facts?

And, how are governments keeping track of adverse reactions from GET/CBT for pwME, and others? How do they do this for pharmaceuticals and other medical treatments? The short answer for other medical treatments is sometimes they don't.

Can governments readily point to the thousands of pwME in their countries who have returned to health and normal lives after GET/CBT? Where are governments' stats to back up the claims GET/CBT cure or improve significant numbers? Where is the follow up, monitoring, and governments' responsibilities?

Is the short answer, there is none?
 
Historically, do you think the treatment of, say, people with MS when they were diagnosed with hysteria was ethical? Were the doctors making those diagnoses being reasonably diligent?
It would be entirely a matter of whether or not those treating had been diligent enough in establishing that the treatment worked. You could ask was the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis with gold on the basis that it was an aberrant form of tuberculosis ethical. It was eventually, because a trial was done to show that gold genuinely worked. Before that it would have been a question of whether, without RCT methodology being available, clinical impressions were witnessed with due diligence and scepticism balanced against the fact that without treatment the illness was devastating.

Was it unethical to use high dose bone marrow ablation with stem cell rescue, with an 8% mortality, in scleroderma, based on the false theory that this would induce cure?

I don't see anything a priori more unethical about treating a condition as hysteria when it is immunological than treating it as an infection when it is immunological. The problem with the psychosomatic field as I see it is that because anomaly of regulation it is the last field where due diligence in gathering evidence does not seem to be taken seriously. There are inherent problems with psychological theories in terms of testability but there are lots of immunological theories that are ultimately untestable but which may provide clues that a different sort of treatment might work - my own use of rituximab falls under that.

What I think it may boil down to is that science is not about which theory seems nice and which seems nasty. It is about which theory makes useful predictions that can be confirmed with evidence.

Apologies for slow reply. And apologies if what I write has been said by others. I didn't have the capacity to respond as quickly I would have liked, or to read all the comments which have appeared since, but I wanted to respond because I think this is a really important issue.

I don’t think we are disagreeing about much. I agree that for pwME the most pressing concern is to discredit the ineffective and potentially harmful therapies, and the flawed research methodologies upon which they are based, and I agree that those arguments are separate from and should not be confused with arguments about aetiology. However, I also think that, separately, there are legitimate ethical concerns about somatisation-type diagnoses.

First, I think it's important to differentiate between prescribed treatments and how patients are treated in the more general sense of how people interact with them. I believe it can be harmful to falsely label someone as mentally unwell, independently of what treatments they are prescribed.

If someone is mentally unwell it may be appropriate for medical professionals and others to interact with them in ways that would be inappropriate with someone who is not mentally unwell. (NB I am not talking about inappropriate interaction due to prejudice.) In the case of ME/CFS, doctors and others are informed that it is patients’ unhelpful beliefs which are preventing them from recovering. Independently of what treatments they may be prescribed, this results in medical professionals and others treating (ie interacting with) pwME in ways that are inappropriate and distressing (ie harmful). However, this situation is not unique to ME/CFS or mental health. It would be similarly unethical, for example, to falsely assert that someone had any other type of diagnosis, such as a highly infectious disease – and more so if everybody who had a chronic illness without a known biomarker was automatically assumed to a have such a disease.

Second, I think we need to differentiate between speculation about the possible causes/mechanisms of a medical condition, and stating as facts theories or models which are not supported by reliable evidence (and in some cases may be unfalsifiable). I have no ethical concerns with responsible doctors or scientists speculating about what role psychological factors might play in triggering, maintaining or effecting any type of illness. But, to me, an ethical line is crossed when speculation is assumed to be fact without reliable supporting evidence – especially when those assumptions inform public policy.

Again, this ethical line applies to non-psychological diagnoses in the same way that it applies to psychosomatic-type diagnoses. So in that sense I agree that it is unhelpful to differentiate ethically between psychosomatic v biomedical. The ethical problem is with the false diagnosis/mislabeling and the presentation of speculation (or falsehoods) as facts, not about the particular type of diagnosis. The point is that the psychological medicine should be held to the same standards as any other branch of medicine.

However, I also think it’s important to recognise that, unlike other branches of medicine, psychological medicine has a long history of crossing these ethical lines – particularly with regard to somatisation-type diagnoses. It seems that for more than 2000 years just about every unexplained chronic illness has been assumed to be some sort of somatisation until the real causes and mechanisms have been understood. With such an appalling track record, I struggle to understand how such a diagnosis can continue to be taken seriously as a scientific explanation for anything. Yes, we can, and must, defeat the particular claims made by BPS researchers about the effectiveness of particular treatments and the causes of particular illnesses, but at some point the route cause to these repeated false claims needs to be addressed. I agree that successfully challenging flawed methodology in psychological research will go long way to achieving this, but I don't think that should be the only approach.

I also think it is important not to overlook the particular consequences of falsely labelling someone as being mentally unwell – particularly when the patient is considered to be deluded in some way, and/or responsible for perpetuating their own illness – which may be different from the consequences of other types of false diagnosis/characterisation.

However, as evidenced by the discussions on this thread, arguments about the ethics of somatisation-type diagnoses are harder to make than arguments about the quality of BPS ME/CFS research and the effectiveness of particular treatments, and there is a danger that if they are not presented carefully they may distract from or undermine the immediate battles which need to be fought with NICE, Cochrane and others.
 
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I would be so pleased to have any leader in psychosomatic medicine publicly engage with me about the psychosomatic/biomedical divide. I'm just finishing an article about it.
Don’t hold your breath. Expect complaints to your University, ad hominem attacks and the destruction of strawman arguments, but not public debate.

Also, do not underestimate SW. He may have many faults but he is no fool. If there are weaknesses in your arguments he will exploit them with ruthless efficiency, and use them to discredit you and others.

I'm not writing social media posts. These are single-author, peer-reviewed articles in top journals. No one could publish these things without very substantial expertise in the history and methods of psychosomatic medicine. It's quite bizarre that I keep having to say that on this forum. This would never be necessary in academic settings.
I’m sure you will understand if we of all people are not persuaded by arguments based on the fact that they have been peer-reviewed and published in high-ranking journals. In my experience discussions on these forums are often far more in depth and useful than peer-review – remember this is where many of the peer-reviewed critisisms of PACE and other flawed research have been formulated.

For what it's worth I'm not seeing how the combative skepticism serves the cause, or the collective spirit of the group. I'm an ally.
I don’t think anyone perceives you as anything other than an ally. But first and foremost we are allies in pursuit of truth, wherever that may lead us.

Many thanks for writing the blog and instigating this discussion – I’ve found it very interesting and informative.
 
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