1. Sign our petition calling on Cochrane to withdraw their review of Exercise Therapy for CFS here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, the 'News in Brief' for the week beginning 8th April 2024 is here.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Welcome! To read the Core Purpose and Values of our forum, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

HRA (Health Research Authority) & Bristol University's report on E. Crawley's CFS/ME Studies over registration to the Research Ethics Committee (2019)

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic news - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by MEMarge, Oct 22, 2019.

  1. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    12,421
    Location:
    Canada
    Skimming this and: multiple violations and missed requirements but it's all good because if those are retroactively fixed, did it really happen at all? Also of note: optional requirements. Apparently those are all the rage lately.

    Damn. Orwell would be impressed by this one. A panel openly recommending to amend past records in order to retroactively clear misconduct. Impressive. Big Brother did that in private and pretended not to be doing that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
    Joh, alktipping, Atle and 17 others like this.
  2. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,228
    I have pointed out to the HRA that I consider the vice chancellor to have already compromised his independence in this regard and should have no place in adjudicating this matter. That argument has not apparently persuaded anyone involved.
     
    Joh, alktipping, Atle and 17 others like this.
  3. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,228
    Can you point me to a specific place where that is clear?
     
    sea and Binkie4 like this.
  4. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,393
    edit: @Barry already posted these links back in 2017 - https://www.s4me.info/threads/trial...week’s-post-27-december-2017.1677/#post-28696

    The HRA has helpful guides on 'is it research' and 'do I need NHS REC approval':

    https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and...lanning/access-study-support-advice-services/

    Taken from this short paper:

    Service evaluation, audit and research: what is the difference?
    Alison Twycross1,
    1. Allison Shorten2

    https://ebn.bmj.com/content/17/3/65
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  5. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

    Messages:
    21,912
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    http://www.virology.ws/2019/10/28/t...-about-the-investigation-of-bristol-research/
     
  6. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    52,218
    Location:
    UK
    Since David Tuller has been told not to quote from the letter, but only to publish it whole, I'm not sure if we are allowed to quote bits, so I'll paraphrase
    - they say all 11 papers contain material which classifies them as research.
    - they say that research that uses anonymised data doesn't need ethics approval.

    From the report about the school absence study (study 5 - paragraph 63:
    They go on to say it doesn't need ethical approval.

    I don't understand.

    On the one hand it's research, on the other it's service evaluation.

    On the one hand only anonymised data in research is exempt, on the other you can do face to face collection of data from kids who haven't even been diagnosed yet and who haven't sought your services, yet be exempt from ethics approval.

    What am I missing here?
     
    alktipping, Cheshire, JaneL and 20 others like this.
  7. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,602
    Am I wrong in imagining that the Panel's report wholly fails to address the important substance, rather than mere form, of a matter? Was it not an issue that meetings were held between the clinicians and children/parents in the presence of School Attendance Officers? This all seems to have been brushed off in the report (paragraphs 62 and 63). There seems to have been clear confusion as to the roles of the parties and ethical guidance should have been required. If the senior administrators think this acceptable one does have to wonder about their judgment.
     
  8. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,228
    I was asked to publish it whole. Since I've done that, the request does not bind anyone else, as far as I'm concerned and I'm sure as far as they're concerned. I mean, no one else has agreed to that condition so the HRA certainly couldn't have any expectation that it applies to anything but the first posting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  9. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,228
    It is rather confusing. As I documented at length, this "pilot program" really should not be defined as service evaluation. The point seems to be that they believe it was done in the course of the provision of normal school clinical services, but since it's a pilot program it wouldn't seem to qualify as standard clinical services.
     
  10. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,228
    Yes, this would also suggest that these meetings cannot be defined as standard clinical services.
     
  11. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    12,421
    Location:
    Canada
    alktipping, ScottTriGuy, sea and 2 others like this.
  12. Robert 1973

    Robert 1973 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,297
    Location:
    UK
    It would be interesting to know how often panel members have been given anonymity in previous investigations. It would also be interesting to know what specific evidence was presented to the HRA which resulted in anonymity being deemed necessary in this case. I wonder if this could be obtained via a FOI request. It would be unfortunate if the decision was based on the type of spurious claims that were rejected by the court in Alem’s successful FOI appeal.

    Are you minded to write to the ombudsman, @dave30th?
     
    TiredSam, alktipping, rvallee and 8 others like this.
  13. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    8,385
    Unfortunately it needs both intelligence plus integrity, 1 out of 2 doesn't cut it. So many examples in public life at the moment.
     
  14. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,602
    Although one can just about understand the wish for anonymity of the panel members this does introduce problems in an Inquisitorial rather than Adversarial system. No doubt the panel members are highly able in general matters of research and the procedures involved. They may even be knowledgeable about specific issues of research ethics as they apply to cases involving children, but we have no way of knowing whether this is in fact the case.

    There is no one here to put the case for the complainant and point out the particular issues in need of consideration. The enquiry secretariat cannot be considered independent. Do the papers presented to the panel for consideration adequately represent the full extent of the case. It would not be unusual for panel members to be discouraged from pursuing their own independent reading to obtain a broad view of the issues.

    Purpose

    1. To read and review eleven publications on chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME) citing Research Ethics Committee reference 07/Q2006/48, as listed below.

    2. To determine in each case:
      (a) Whether the collection and analysis of the data referred to in each publication was covered by an NHS Research Ethics Committee ethical review ('ethical review') and favourable opinion, including whether there was any departure from a reviewed project that was not covered by additional ethical review

      (b) Whether the collection and analysis of the data referred to in each publication was part of service evaluation (either under HRA guidance or in line with National Outcomes Database practice), and therefore did not require ethical review

      (c) If not, whether ethical review for the collection and analysis of the data (i) was required at the time of publication and (ii) would be required under current Governance Arrangements for Research Ethics Committees (GAfREC) if published today

      (d) Whether further action should be considered in relation to any publication based on the outcome of this review
    This would seem to exclude whether further action should be considered in relation to consent for, and conduct of, interviews conducted in pursuance of the collection of data, and which might fall within normal requirements for ethical consideration, whether of duties of research or normal medical requirements.

    The report states:

    Next steps

    This report and the panel's findings and recommendations will be considered by the Chief Executive of the Health Research Authority and the Pro Vice-Chancellor for Research at the University of Bristol, who will decide on any further action to be taken.

    Presumably this is the meeting alluded to in the letter in which the HRA confirms that it agrees with the report and its recommendations.

    Did that meeting cover all the possible ground? Surely there is a duty to consider whether there are any matters outwith the narrow terms of reference and whether the panel had the necessary skills to enable it to determine substantive, rather than procedural, ethical issues.

    There seems to be a possibility that the terms of reference were too narrowly drawn, the panel reported in line with its remit, and that is deemed an end of the matter.

    I may have missed something. My reading is not currently entirely reliable.
     
    Mithriel, alktipping, MEMarge and 6 others like this.
  15. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    9,582
    Location:
    UK
    have been taking another look at the Wakefield MMR debacle and found this statement by the Lancet:
    https://www.thelancet.com/pb-assets/Lancet/extras/statement20Feb2004web.pdf

    all this conveniently seems to have been forgotten in recent coverage of anti-vaxxers

    so many similarities; will they never learn.
     
    Mithriel, alktipping, rvallee and 4 others like this.
  16. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,228
    I have tried repeatedly to get a copy of the letters. Bristol says they don't have them and the clinic in Bath should have them. The clinic in Bath referred me back to Bristol. No one will acknowledge having them. Since there was no ethical review and no apparent consent, there's no real way to conduct oversight.
     
    Lisa108, Mithriel, Sean and 11 others like this.
  17. Adrian

    Adrian Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,486
    Location:
    UK
    Are there violations of data retention polices if they have failed to keep copies of data in an accessible place. I assume records should be kept for each individual patient as well? Don't doctors have a duty to keep adequate medical records?

    I guess one of the issues is that there is a doctor who works for two institutions and each is saying look at the other. My assumption is that neither knew about what was going on and there are no records.

    But by calling it a pilot study I assume that Crawley has put the ball firmly in the Bath Hospital trust's court and so I wonder if it would be worth questioning them about what approvals they gave, who funded the pilot and what data retention policies they have that would have applied in this case and why they failed.
     
    TiredSam, alktipping, rvallee and 7 others like this.
  18. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,228
    Adrian, my sense is that no one gave approvals for anything, no one consented anyone, and Professor Crawley did more or less what she wanted, with the assistance of three schools in the area. She called it a "pilot study" but then claimed it was part of regular school clinical services. Bristol and HRA have apparently swallowed that line of reasoning. Whether anyone really believes that is hard to know. However, given that the investigation has decided that it was all just a misunderstanding and has basically blamed everything on what they claim is an ambiguous REC letter, that will likely be the fall-back defense to any efforts to inquire further. I am still waiting to hear from HRA if there is a deadline for filing the appeal, since it's not like I don't have other things to do as well.
     
    Sid, TiredSam, ladycatlover and 14 others like this.
  19. Amw66

    Amw66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,317
    but do any parents have them??
    or schools?
     
  20. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,228
    Parents must, but how to find them? The education department has claimed to know nothing about it. The specific schools were not identified in the study.
     

Share This Page