George Monbiot on ME/CFS, PACE, BPS and Long Covid

Nightsong said:
The usual suspects have responded to Monbiot (as has a clinical psychologist claiming "lived experience" of ME and practising mind-body woo-woo):

https://www.theguardian.com/society...view-of-illness-doesnt-help-those-with-me-cfs

Nothing new, just a regurgitation of the same claptrap they've been spouting for decades.
Click to expand...
I hope Ilora Finlay and Peter Barry may respond.

Sharpe et al write:

“Remarkably, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (Nice) has indeed rescinded its previous support for these treatments, leaving patients with no evidence-based ways of getting better. But this new Nice guidance is contested, being based on a flawed review and interpretation of the evidence, as shown by an analysis by us and 48 other international experts.”​

It’s frustrating that their JNNP “analysis” has no link to the response from Barry et al (which is also behind a paywall).

I’m so sick of this.
 
SNT Gatchaman said:
Click to expand...

In this, George Monbiot said (I tried to clean up the YouTube autotranscript so this might not be perfect):

George Monbiot said:
One of the things I've noticed as I've got older is these recurring themes, these deep ideas which are often so deeply planted in our minds that we don't even recognize them as ideas.

Some of them are centuries old. It's what the brilliant cognitive historian Jeremy Lent calls root metaphors, these ideas which are just implanted in our mind. We don't even recognize that it's an idea, it’s just this is just the way things are and so this notion of being among the undeserving, and you don't deserve treatment, you don't deserve benefits, you don't deserve anything because you are a malingerer, because you're faking it, because you're lazy, you're indolent, that's a very deeply embedded idea which long predates the biopsychosocial model of ME/CFS.
Click to expand...

I think this is a problem, that the BPS crowd have glommed onto a really ugly unexamined assumption that's pervasive in our society, and I wonder whether this has been why so many scientists who you think would know better have failed to see the gigantic holes in logic, research methodology and basic humanity that the whole edifice entails. At some level, they want to believe it's true, and so do many of the public.

I think that attitudes can change - we've seen them change on all sorts of things over the years - but perhaps this nasty bigotry needs calling out directly for what it is. Basically, it's 'An illness is only real if I've got it.'
 
Trish said:
I think the Dr Jake Hollis one is worse in a way, as he repeats as fact the unevidenced stuff about stress, adverse childhood experiences ...
Click to expand...

I can't bear to look. Turn of the Screw? Or more Transylvanian toothmark stuff?

One thing is for certain, nothing new in twenty years.
Interesting that the Guardian publishes these. All very fair and Polly Toynbee? Maybe the Times has decided to take a firmer editorial position.

I never thought in all my years in medicine that I would see eminent colleagues making such fools of themselves. Dorothy Bishop can get hot and bothered about peer review in distinguished journals but this stuff is just laughable.
 
For the record, because it's been a busy day - this was first published online at 17.25 today. It states:

Remarkably, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (Nice) has indeed rescinded its previous support for these treatments, leaving patients with no evidence-based ways of getting better.
Click to expand...
My bold.

When there are any do please let us know.
 
I’m trying to write a letter to the Guardian. Can anyone help me find a quote? In one of his earlier papers SW wrote something about the role of the doctor/psychiatrist needing to reassure CFS patients to stop them seeking more tests and referrals and encouraging them to move on without losing dignity.

If anyone can find the quote and source this evening I’d be grateful.

[Edit: found. See post below.]
 
Last edited:
Nightsong said:
The usual suspects have responded to Monbiot (as has a clinical psychologist claiming "lived experience" of ME and practising mind-body woo-woo):

https://www.theguardian.com/society...view-of-illness-doesnt-help-those-with-me-cfs

Nothing new, just a regurgitation of the same claptrap they've been spouting for decades.
Click to expand...



Guardian Letter From a 'Part Time Fatigue Psychologist' :

'George Monbiot says ME/CFS is “as physiological as a broken leg”. However, if I repeatedly break my leg due to a penchant for jumping off rooftops, or my exposure to a hazardous working environment, then these psychological and environmental factors are worth considering too. ME/CFS is to a broken leg what the Amazon rainforest is to your local park – it is a vastly complex, multifactorial chronic illness, which remains poorly understood from a medical perspective. As a clinical psychologist who has been working on my own recovery from the condition for nearly five years, I have come to view ME/CFS as existing at the confluence of body and mind. This is not intended to psychologise those of us living with ME/CFS. The symptoms are real, debilitating, and can make life utterly miserable.

However, we humans are psychobiological organisms whose brains and bodies shape themselves to our social environment. People with ME/CFS have often experienced periods of chronic and acute stress in the period before they become unwell. Not uncommonly, they carry the “allostatic load” of adverse childhood experiences, and as a result may have learned to meet the world in adaptive but unsustainable ways – such as being high achievers, perfectionists and self-sacrificers. Eventually, the straw that breaks the camel’s back comes along, typically in the form of a viral infection like Covid or glandular fever. This final stressor shifts the body into a state of dyshomeostasis that appears to become persistent at least partly due to the sensitisation of the central nervous system.

Emerging research is helping us to better understand possible physiological mechanisms of ME/CFS. However, a key question that we have to ask is this: what are the biological, psychological and social factors that create the conditions for this state of imbalance in the entire organism?'
Dr Jake Hollis
Brighton




LINKEDIN:

Dr Jake Hollis

Clinical Psychologist

The Fatigue Psychologist · Part-time Jul 2024 - Present ·

Chartered Clinical Psychologist specialising in ME/CFS, Long Covid, Fibromyalgia & Burnout

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jake-hollis-67471097/?original_referer=https://www.google.co.uk/&originalSubdomain=uk



The Guardian persists in it's determination to continue their 'balanced reporting' Bollox by giving space to ME psychosocial supporters, one way or another. Even the ideological ramblings of a 'Part time Fatigue Psychologist' gets featured in The Guardian.

.



Dr Jake Hollis in Psychology Today

'Are you living with a chronic health condition, trauma, chronic stress, or burnout? These kinds of difficulties can cause us to feel trapped in vicious cycles of overwhelming emotions, racing thoughts, and deeply unpleasant physical sensations.'

'Are you living with a chronic health condition, trauma, chronic stress, or burnout? These kinds of difficulties can cause us to feel trapped in vicious cycles of overwhelming emotions, racing thoughts, and deeply unpleasant physical sensations. Our lives can get smaller, and we may find ourselves feeling stuck, defeated and broken. By working together to come up with a shared understanding of how you arrived in this scary situation, we can create a plan to reverse this spiral. Over time, we can help your mind and body to move into a healing state, freeing up energy for you to reconnect with what matters most to you.


medium.jpeg



I specialise in trauma and the mind-body connection. As a Clinical Psychologist with lived experience of ME/CFS, long covid, chronic stress and burnout, I know first hand how debilitating and isolating these difficulties can be. I make use of the latest in neuroscience and evidence-based psychotherapies to help improve people's physical and mental health.'

'During our sessions, we can explore patterns that might be keeping you stuck, such as self-sacrificing, people-pleasing, hyper-responsibility, striving and perfectionism.'


https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/...is-clinical-psychologist-brighton-eng/1378374

.


Jake Hollis specialises in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, chronic illness and Trauma and PTSD

He charges £120 per Hour

https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counsellors/jake-hollis

.
 
Last edited:
Robert 1973 said:
I’m trying to write a letter to the Guardian. Can anyone help me find a quote? In one of his earlier papers SW wrote something about the role of the doctor/psychiatrist needing to reassure CFS patients to stop them seeking more tests and referrals and encouraging them to move on without losing dignity.

If anyone can find the quote and source this evening I’d be grateful.
Click to expand...

Is this what you were thinknig of @Robert 1973 ?

After the initial session patients should be able to accept the proposed model as one they can work with, even if they do not believe in it. They should also have a clear understanding of the loss of tolerance to activity and the fear-avoidance model. Ideally a behavioural programme should be individually tailored, with agreed targets appropriate to the degree of initial disability. However, it is likely to involve the following features:

1. Regular exercise, with which the patient can feel comfortable.
2. A graded increase in exercise, involving walking, swimming and so on.
3. Encouragement of exercises such as yoga and callisthenics.
4. Gradual exposure to all avoided activity.
5. Cognitive work to break the association between increase in symptoms and stopping or avoiding the activity.
6. Further cognitive strategies involving alternative explanations for symptoms. For example, if the patient admitted to thinking 'I feel tired, I must have done too much', one might ask the patient to look for alternative explanations, such as 'I may be tired because I haven't being doing much lately'
7. No further visits to specialists or hospitals unless agreed with therapist.
8. Involvement of a co-therapist.
Click to expand...

4.pdf
 
Robert 1973 said:
I’m trying to write a letter to the Guardian. Can anyone help me find a quote? In one of his earlier papers SW wrote something about the role of the doctor/psychiatrist needing to reassure CFS patients to stop them seeking more tests and referrals and encouraging them to move on without losing dignity.

If anyone can find the quote and source this evening I’d be grateful.
Click to expand...
I’ve found it. It was in this 1989 paper under the sub-heading Beginning treatment:
https://www.simonwessely.com/Downloads/Publications/CFS/4.pdf

IMG_3356.jpeg
 
Jonathan Edwards said:
I can't bear to look. Turn of the Screw? Or more Transylvanian toothmark stuff?

One thing is for certain, nothing new in twenty years.
Interesting that the Guardian publishes these. All very fair and Polly Toynbee? Maybe the Times has decided to take a firmer editorial position.

I never thought in all my years in medicine that I would see eminent colleagues making such fools of themselves. Dorothy Bishop can get hot and bothered about peer review in distinguished journals but this stuff is just laughable.
Click to expand...
I know writing letters to newspapers isn’t usually your thing but could I persuade you to submit a letter to the editor which leaves no doubt about the utter nonsense these people are spouting? It would have more impact coming from you.
 
Trish said:
I'd be wary of a UK ME/CFS public enquiry while the likes of Wessely, Sharpe, White, Chalder, Moss-Morris et al are still influential. The desire for 'balance' can scupper deep understanding of the problem, and eminence over-ride evidence.
Click to expand...
This. We have all seen how shameless and ruthless they are. The closer they get to losing their empires, reputations, status, incomes, etc, the more so they will become.
Sasha said:
I think that attitudes can change - we've seen them change on all sorts of things over the years - but perhaps this nasty bigotry needs calling out directly for what it is.
Click to expand...
It is difficult to start dealing with a thing until it is named, until it is made overt.
Jonathan Edwards said:
I never thought in all my years in medicine that I would see eminent colleagues making such fools of themselves.
Click to expand...
And worse.

–––––––––

Prof. Sharpe says:

Remarkably, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (Nice) has indeed rescinded its previous support for these treatments, leaving patients with no evidence-based ways of getting better.
Click to expand...
And why is there a lack evidence-based treatments, Prof.?
 
Lou B Lou said:
Guardian Letter From a 'Part Time Fatigue Psychologist' :

'George Monbiot says ME/CFS is “as physiological as a broken leg”. However, if I repeatedly break my leg due to a penchant for jumping off rooftops, or my exposure to a hazardous working environment, then these psychological and environmental factors are worth considering too.
Click to expand...

That analogy doesn't strengthen his argument about the 'mind-body connection', it undermines it. But he hasn't noticed because he's too busy lucratively guilt-tripping people.

'During our sessions, we can explore patterns that might be keeping you stuck, such as self-sacrificing, people-pleasing, hyper-responsibility, striving and perfectionism.'
Click to expand...


Like a medium trawling for a receptive audience member. Something's coming through, I'm getting a name... does anyone here know a John? ... James? ... Jane?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom