Dialogues for a neglected illness - videos on experiences of people with ME (funded by Wellcome Foundation)

I second that.

I am also very sad.
I realise CS is pulled in many different ways and really appreciate all the work and efforts he continues to make for the ME community just as he has done for so many years. Like my post above, he is probably desperate for others to take up the baton, so that he can just slow down a bit and relax (and that would be well deserved).

@Russell Fleming
Please would you seek some reassurances from MEA that links and recommendations for “Dialogues” will be made by our main ME charity in the U.K. ?

If Dr Charles would be willing to reconsider and film a brief introduction of some sort, I feel that this would have such a huge impact on raising much deserved recognition for this project. With Dr Nina involved and the Biobank, this website is, afterall, going to be a major U.K. educational tool.
I'm editing the Introductory video at the moment - starting from scratch again, now I have some more really good material to draw on. The main problem is keeping it short enough! I will probably contact CS again, but for now I am not working on a section where his input would be most useful. Josh is taking paternity leave - a daughter born on Sunday night - so we won't be filming again for a bit and when we do I have quite few visits planned already. I think I have this autumn pretty much full already!
 
Transcript of part two.
Please see end of document for screenshots of the graphs.
Thank you for taking the time to transcribe the videos. As I mentioned in a post I have transcripts of the videos already, which I try to keep up-to-date was we edit and make changes. I can't check these at the moment - just become a Granny and editing the Introductory video while I have it all in my head. I would prefer the transcripts to just stay this forum and not be put up in other public places - Please. Thank you.
 
I am so impressed with these videos. Great quality, clear and I can’t wait to see the others. I think they will so useful for us to easily share with health professionals in various situations when we are under pressure/misunderstood.

Must admit to tearing up a little at video one: “is deconditioning a problem, yes. Is reconditioning possible. No” (or words to that effect). I think this needed saying.

I feel like such a failure that I cannot even keep my muscles at a better level by isometric movements and small efforts long term. I keep trying but it is much harder than I expect to keep doing it (on top of already stretched resources for necessary activity like washing, eating etc), to remember, to not do too much, to judge that and implement it on my own. I am watching a slow decline, but feel powerless to change that and there’s no real support or trustworthy help and advice.
which is what they should have done here; I'm guessing that one of the reasons they jumped on the Unrest bandwagon is because it is not UK focussed, and there is no direct criticism of what has been going on here over the last couple of decades. Such a missed opportunity by the UK charities.

At least Voices is being more widely viewed now, although I still think it is largely only by people in the community.

Really pleased that Nina is getting involved in the new project.
It is clearly a huge undertaking for you both and I really appreciate all that you are doing/have done.

Hope that we, as a community, can help in any way possible to make it a real success.
I think that when the film came out - 2011 - people really didn't know so much about very, severe ME and the abuse of patients. The film was really shocking, too shocking for people to want to show it much. I certainly had no idea how bad things were before I did the interviews. I didn't chose examples of abuse intentionally!
 
I'm editing the Introductory video at the moment - starting from scratch again, now I have some more really good material to draw on. The main problem is keeping it short enough! I will probably contact CS again, but for now I am not working on a section where his input would be most useful. Josh is taking paternity leave - a daughter born on Sunday night - so we won't be filming again for a bit and when we do I have quite few visits planned already. I think I have this autumn pretty much full already!

Very many congratulations to you Granny @Natalie ! Please pass my very best wishes to all the Family from me, Hubby and Greyhound “Happy Hound” (HH).

Perhaps CS will be available the next time you ask....I will keep everything crossed.

Edit: names
 
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This is good news @NelliePledge.

Now if only they could get the link onto the NHS site!

I have queried before the use (by the NHS) of a short video titled
"Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - watch an expert describe the symptoms,diagnosis and treatments for..."
with a fairly old video of Charles Shepherd.

I think this sends out all the wrong messages.

Firstly, the singular prominent use of CFS.
Secondly, given the 'advice' included on the NHS site re diagnosis and treatment, surely this is completely at odds with everything the MEA is supposedly fighting against on behalf of ME patients.
And lastly, how can the NHS say on the one hand that Charles Shepherd is an expert and then on the other promote the theories and treatments (ie GET/CBT) of the likes of Sharpe,Chalder et al.

I really don't think that the MEA should continue to allow that video to be used without certain changes being made to the advice contained on the site as it implies that they endorse the treatments the NHS recommend.

see:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs/

eta:
did a transcript
My name is Dr Charles Shepherd, I’m medical advisor to the ME Association, which is a self-help support charity for people with ME/CFS.

ME/CFS it’s an illness which normally starts suddenly, it often follows an infection, maybe a fairly trivial infection, and it tends to affect people in their 20s ,30’s 40’s although children can be affected as can more elderly people. I first got involved with ME/CFS after catching it myself .

I was working as a hospital doctor at the time and one of my patients had shingles and I caught a very nasty dose of chickenpox from it and that’s what triggered my ME/CFS in the first place.


I think that a lot of people don’t realise that it’s a very debilitating illness, it involves a combination of symptoms but in particular muscle symptoms, exercise induced muscle fatigue, quite often pain, brain symptoms, problems with memory, concentration, attention span, balance, not being able to stand up properly, and also just not feeling well. Continuing to feel flu-like, you put them all together and it is an illness that is going to affect every aspect of what we try and do.


It’s an illness which can in most cases be diagnosed by your general practitioner, but he can’t do it in a single appointment so you’ll probably need to ask for a double appointment if you are querying this diagnosis.

Your GP really should take a detailed history to make sure he’s not missing any other causes of an ME/CFS like illness, because there are a lot of other illnesses that can present with these sort of symptoms.


So after taking a detailed history, your GP will also want to do a range of investigations to rule out things like heart disease, kidney disease, thyroid disease and other illnesses which can cause ME/CFS like symptoms.


(on screen at this point is a screen of NHS website with Childhood trauma and ME on it)


If he’s not sure then your GP can refer you to a hospital specialist for a more accurate diagnosis.


I think there are five key aspects for the management of this illness.


First of all is getting activity management correct, getting the correct balance between activity and rest.

Secondly is the use of drugs which can be helpful for treating things like pain and sleep disturbance although we don’t have a drug which is going to cure this disease.

Thirdly is sensible use of alternative and complementary therapies.

Fourthly is dealing with work and education, where that’s relevant.

And fifthly is dealing with emotional and psychological problems if they arise.


Unfortunately we don’t yet have a drug that will cure ME/CFS or effectively treat it and this means that the outlook is quite often rather unpredictable.


But we do know that people tend to fall into one of three broad groups.


First of all are those who make slow but steady improvement, secondly is a group in the middle who tend to follow a rather up and down and rather erratic course but they eventually stabilise from this pattern.

Thirdly there are a small, perhaps 20-25% of people with this illness who fall into a severe category who remain housebound, bedbound, even wheelchair bound, with this illness.


The good news for children and adolescents who have this illness, is that on the whole, their outlook is far better than adults who have this illness, and a lot of children do return to full, normal health.


This is an illness that affects all parts of the persons life, not just the medical aspects, it affects their family, their relationships, their finances, what they do in relation to work, school, social activities etc.

And all these things are going to be affected by having ME/CFS and they are likely to be affected for some time. So this is something that people have to come to terms with and get whatever help in the various different areas that they feel is going to make them, you know, improve from that point of view.
 
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This is good news @NelliePledge.

Now if only they could get the link onto the NHS site!

I have queried before the use (by the NHS) of a short video titled
"Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - watch an expert describe the symptoms,diagnosis and treatments for..."
with a fairly old video of Charles Shepherd.

I think this sends out all the wrong messages.

Firstly, the singular prominent use of CFS.
Secondly, given the 'advice' included on the NHS site re diagnosis and treatment, surely this is completely at odds with everything the MEA is supposedly fighting against on behalf of ME patients.
And lastly, how can the NHS say on the one hand that Charles Shepherd is an expert and then on the other promote the theories and treatments (ie GET/CBT) of the likes of Sharpe,Chalder et al.

I really don't think that the MEA should continue to allow that video to be used without certain changes being made to the advice contained on the site as it implies that they endorse the treatments the NHS recommend.

see:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs/
It’s a while since I watched it but I think one needs to be careful what one wishes for. It could be replaced by a psychologist/physio/psychiatrist/other clinic employee saying annoying stuff.
 
It’s a while since I watched it but I think one needs to be careful what one wishes for. It could be replaced by a psychologist/physio/psychiatrist/other clinic employee saying annoying stuff.
to be honest I'd prefer to see someone like Trudie Chalder on there spouting about fear avoidance and deconditioning and the rest of their rubbish. Then people would really see what's behind the treatments on offer (ie GET/CBT) rather than the MEA apparently giving it credence.
(I've done a transcript so you can see what he says and how it can easily be seen as justification for GET/CBT).
 
I second that.

I am also very sad.
I realise CS is pulled in many different ways and really appreciate all the work and efforts he continues to make for the ME community just as he has done for so many years. Like my post above, he is probably desperate for others to take up the baton, so that he can just slow down a bit and relax (and that would be well deserved).

@Russell Fleming
Please would you seek some reassurances from MEA that links and recommendations for “Dialogues” will be made by our main ME charity in the U.K. ?

If Dr Charles would be willing to reconsider and film a brief introduction of some sort, I feel that this would have such a huge impact on raising much deserved recognition for this project. With Dr Nina involved and the Biobank, this website is, afterall, going to be a major U.K. educational tool.

Morning @Natalie

Apologies, I have only just seen the alert and wasn't aware of previous conversations between you and Dr Shepherd. We did feature on social media yesterday a link to your website and the new videos but I would like to try and do more to promote the fantastic efforts you and the team are making if at all possible.

Would you like to email me and we can discuss how best the MEA might help?

russell.fleming@meassociation.org.uk

Many thanks

Russell
 
The first two short videos for "Dialogues for a neglected illness " -" Graded Exercise Therapy for ME/CFS" - in two parts - is now available to watch http://voicesfromtheshadowsfilm.co.uk/dialogues-project/ Many thanks to Graham McPhee, John Peters and Tom Kindlon for help with sorting out the edit and graphs to make it accurate and, of course, to the contributors - Brian Hughes, Jo Edwards and members of the Workwell team.
These two videos are also available to view on the Workwell website, https://workwellfoundation.org/research-latest-news/
 
I think that when the film came out - 2011 - people really didn't know so much about very, severe ME and the abuse of patients. The film was really shocking, too shocking for people to want to show it much. I certainly had no idea how bad things were before I did the interviews. I didn't chose examples of abuse intentionally!

@Natalie I can relate to what you say:


I developed ME 35 years ago. Despite being bedridden a lot of the time (and still need lots of couch time), it wasn't until the 23 year mark for me that I had a glimpse of how bad ME can get. I was consulting a ME specialist when ambulance attendants wheeled in a very ashen woman for the doctor to see. It was shocking.

From early on I subscribed to newsletters from various groups, and read what books I could find on the topic, but somehow, missed the fact that people could be 100% bedridden, need tube feeding, be very near death, or die from ME. I don't know if I just missed this in the literature, or if it was not there. Was it de-emphasized in order that people not become discouraged?

I have no way of knowing at this point.

Perhaps I was blinded by "authorities'" assurances that I would recover in 1 to 3 years - the official Canadian information at the time.

This information was of course wildly incorrect for many, if not most.

It is crucial that the severity of ME be made clear.

Thank you to all who are doing this.


@Natalie, thank you very much for these very clear and concise videos. They will do much to raise awareness and educate. I look forward to more.
 
Now mentioned on the ME Research UK website -

ME Research UK: Dialogues for ME/CFS

http://www.meresearch.org.uk/information/dialogues/

This is a collection of videos created by Natalie Boulton, funded by an award from the Wellcome Public Engagement Fund. The full series will cover different aspects of ME/CFS from a variety of perspectives, and include interviews with, and input from, doctors, researchers, patients, carers and advocates. There is more information about the project at Voices from the Shadows…
 
Hi, this is Lunarainbow’s mum. She’s still not feeling well enough to type. She has dictated into the voice to text app and I’m editing:

Thank you so much for doing this today. It gives me so much hope things are changing for the better.

The videos are really wonderful and very professionally done and with so much thought and knowledge in them.

@Natalie I just wanted to say that my boyfriend works at the London School of hygiene and tropical medicine's library and he knows quite a lot about severe ME because he is also my carer. I was thinking that when the School of hygiene and tropical medicine is ready to host a screening of the film, maybe my boyfriend would be able to work with his supervisors and the others in the library to put up some posters or to just spread the word and bring more publicity to ME around that time. I am sure he would want to help. When I told him about the Cure ME Biobank, surprisingly he had not heard of it at all and I don't think that other people in his team have as well.

So I think this would also be a good opportunity because I know that quite a lot of academics and students visit the library often. I thought this might be a good way to raise awareness of ME as well and get more people to attend the screening. If you think this is a good idea please let me know.
Hi @lunarainbows , I now have a better idea of when the event at the LSHTM will be. We can't get the videos all ready for this May's ME Awareness week, but the plan is to hold the event as near to ME Awareness 2021. In the meantime we will get the videos online as soon as each is finished, so they can be used. Do please lets be in contact again so I can fill you in on preparations nearer the time. It would be great to have your help. Thanks.
 
My understanding is that in people with ME there is a switch from aerobic to anaerobic metabolism of glucose at a much lower level of energy expenditure.
For each molecule of glucose metabolised anaerobically, ie to make lactic acid, 2 molecules of ATP are produced, rather than 30 something molecules if the system is working aerobically, ie has enough oxygen and no "blocks" in the pathway.

So it's not surprising PwME run out of energy.

The terms used here are not synonymous with the general understanding of aerobic exercise in a fit, healthy person.
Yes, as Chris Snell pointed out, Aerobic exercise for a person with ME is not aerobic! - "For many ME/CFS patients aerobic exercise is not aerobic, so if you’re using a – for example a 60 % of their peak heart rate, as a measure of aerobic energy expenditure, that’s unlikely to be accurate, so unless you actually know where the anaerobic threshold is, even a very, very low intensity programme is very likely, for a person with ME /CFS, to be vigorous to high intensity, ie above their anaerobic threshold. So instead of a leisurely jog, it’s a 100 meter flat out sprint!" Chris Snell, from our interview with him last Feb.
 
I just re-noticed the earlier posts about the MEA and Charles Shepherd and wanted to say that we had a very good and long session interviewing Charles last month - with different degrees of input intended for various videos under construction. I've also had some chats with Russel, who I already knew from the old CMRC PAG. He's been very encouraging and will be putting the GET videos, and some others when they are finished, on the MEA website. I am very grateful for their input and help.
 
Hi @lunarainbows , I now have a better idea of when the event at the LSHTM will be. We can't get the videos all ready for this May's ME Awareness week, but the plan is to hold the event as near to ME Awareness 2021. In the meantime we will get the videos online as soon as each is finished, so they can be used. Do please lets be in contact again so I can fill you in on preparations nearer the time. It would be great to have your help. Thanks.

Hi Natalie thank you, OK shall I contact you in January 2021, or would you prefer a sooner or later date?

I have spoken to my boyfriend about it. He is very happy to help and happy to hear about this project. He says he could help with posters, raising awareness of the event etc and speak to others.
 
Hi Natalie thank you, OK shall I contact you in January 2021, or would you prefer a sooner or later date?

I have spoken to my boyfriend about it. He is very happy to help and happy to hear about this project. He says he could help with posters, raising awareness of the event etc and speak to others.
@lunarainbows , Sorry I'm a bit slow at spotting things... That would be great - perhaps nearer Easter 2021 would be OK.
 
The PEM videos will be ready to go up online soon and I am working on the 'Introduction to ME/CFS' which has been a long time in the making. I would be really glad of having more photos to use in the editing. It contains a fair amount of Jo Edwards, and Luis, as well as many others - Eliana & Caroline, Charles, S. Nina M, Willy Weir, Nigel S., David Tuller, David Systrom, Chris Snell, Mark VN.... I need some pics of PWME, whether lying down or engaged in activities - or even paired - activities and consequences! It really helps to have a choice or photos to draw on, with different degrees of illness and ages. They need to be landscape format. They will not have names attached in the video.

The other thing I need is a graph showing research funding, probably a recent UK one would be best - I wondered if anyone can point me to one we can remake? If anyone can help me out with photos you can contact me using the Voices contact form http://voicesfromtheshadowsfilm.co.uk/contact/ which comes to me. Then I can send my email address to send any photos to. Thank you.
 
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