1. Guest, the 'News in Brief' for the week beginning 7th June 2021 is here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Welcome! To read the Core Purpose and Values of our forum, click here.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Contribute to feedback on the CDC Evidence Review, for more details click here
    Dismiss Notice

Wider collateral damage to children in the UK because of the social distancing [...] COVID-19, 2020, Crawley et al. And other papers by Crawley et al

Discussion in 'Epidemics (including Covid-19)' started by Sly Saint, May 5, 2020.

  1. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,127
    Likes Received:
    50,287
    Location:
    UK
    Wider collateral damage to children in the UK because of the social distancing measures designed to reduce the impact of COVID-19 in adults
    1. Esther Crawley1,
    2. Maria Loades1,2,
    3. Gene Feder3,
    4. Stuart Logan4,
    5. Sabi Redwood5,
    6. John Macleod2
    https://bmjpaedsopen.bmj.com/content/4/1/e000701


    Hmm, reminds me a bit of her Tedx talk.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2020
    Invisible Woman, Barry, JaneL and 9 others like this.
  2. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,939
    Likes Received:
    37,516
    Location:
    UK
    Didn't the UK used to have social distancing between adults and children, for generations.

    It was called boarding schools, and nannies.

    It was the children who weren't socially distanced, from adults, using these or similar methods that ended up with health problems, as it generally meant they were poor, and 'poor' is not good for health, the average age of death was quite a lot lower then.

    I wonder if that's were the word poorly came from.
     
  3. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,113
    Likes Received:
    47,987
    Location:
    UK West Midlands
    Oh what a surprise jumping on the bandwagon :wtf:
     
  4. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,432
    Likes Received:
    52,270
    Location:
    Canada
    I was trying to figure out the point of this meandering thought salad and, yeah, it's a sales pitch:
    In a way this is good for the wellness industry since those children will be in need of more wellness after having been subjected to wellness, kinda like selling both the poison and the cure, but with the added twist that the cure is also poison.

    Bold. Psychopathic. But bold.
     
  5. Amw66

    Amw66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,513
    Likes Received:
    21,542
    And the evidence for the effectiveness of CBT and online CBT ?
     
  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    9,099
    Likes Received:
    97,277
    I don't understand how an educated person can be so stupid as to say:
    We believe that the social distancing measures introduced in the UK and elsewhere, may marginally reduce the infection rate in adults but harms children.

    The harm to children is not from the social distancing. It is from the absence of functioning healthcare due to lack of applying social distancing when it was first needed. Healthcare staff are doing Covid tests on people. They could be doing vaccinations if there weren't thousands upon thousands of unnecessary Covid cases.

    There is some strange mindset here that has allegiance to some peculiarly distorted psychological perspective - psychopathology in fact. It almost sounds like sour grapes from those whose advice turned out to be disastrous.
     
    ladycatlover, Joh, Mithriel and 36 others like this.
  7. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,432
    Likes Received:
    52,270
    Location:
    Canada
    Ironically, it's basically right there in the text: "it could improve". Don't ask about what "improve" means, though, by her own admission she doesn't know and won't commit to a specific thing because then that could be tested and measured, thus removing the suspension of disbelief.

    That's pretty much it. I mean literally it's the whole of the evidence. It "could" help. It's the same evidence for everything it's used on. Which is also accurate of water therapy. It definitely works on dehydration. So it "could" help any condition as long as it includes dehydration (or if by random chance the patient is also dehydrated). That's about the whole of it.

    Which seems like a bit of an oversight seeing as it's commonly used as a replacement to actual medicine but I'm not sure the word applies when it's deliberate.
     
  8. Sarah94

    Sarah94 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,141
    Likes Received:
    12,037
    Location:
    UK
    And also the claim that social distancing will only "marginally" improve the infection rate in adults!?!?!?
     
  9. Sarah94

    Sarah94 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,141
    Likes Received:
    12,037
    Location:
    UK
    I notice she doesn't mention the damage caused to children's mental health by having their parents die of COVID.
     
  10. Sarah94

    Sarah94 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,141
    Likes Received:
    12,037
    Location:
    UK
    1) I hardly think that the authors of this paper are qualified to judge the effectiveness of social distancing measures in reducing infection rates.

    2) Children are not the only people in the world, for fuck's sake, I'm pretty sure that that article of that UN convention wasn't intended to mean that children's mental health should be prioritised over adults' lives.

    3) Anyway they've omitted the fact that dying parents is not in children's best interest.

    4) And then there's the potential for long-term sequelae in post-covid patients, which if too prevalent could end up totally crashing the functioning of society, which I'm sure would be bad for children's wellbeing too.

    5) The good news is that this is the sort of thing that LOTS of scientists and laypeople will call bullshit (if they come across the paper and read that section of it).

    6) Oh also I've spotted two proofreading errors just in that paragraph.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
  11. Sarah94

    Sarah94 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,141
    Likes Received:
    12,037
    Location:
    UK
    And frankly, somebody who promotes the Lightning Process and the concept of "pervasive refusal syndrome", has no right to preach about children's wellbeing and rights.
     
    ladycatlover, rvallee, JemPD and 14 others like this.
  12. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,978
    Likes Received:
    58,467
    Location:
    New Zealand
    I spluttered into my tea cup.
    These people seem to have some sort of collective insanity. And the BMJ printed their deluded ravings.
     
    ladycatlover, Joh, Mithriel and 17 others like this.
  13. obeat

    obeat Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    4,335
    Does unnecessary " cognitive manipulation" also contravene the UN Convention?
     
    ladycatlover, EzzieD, Sarah94 and 9 others like this.
  14. MEMarge

    MEMarge Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,054
    Likes Received:
    12,479
    Couple I know are currently having difficulty getting MMR vaccine. Mum and baby had moved to her parents in Devon as flat in London had mould and mice, joined a week or so later by Dad, so they have been there 8 weeks or so already, but local GP receptionist is saying she must wait for MMR until she returns to usual GP!!
     
  15. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    9,099
    Likes Received:
    97,277
    What I suspect this paper does not point out is that the rate of vaccination has been dropping off anyway because of the chaotic nature of community health care (not antivaxx probably). Parents have been having trouble getting their children vaccinated for a few years now. And the story above shows clearly that this has nothing to do with social distancing. It is the usual 'jobsworth' attitude of healthcare administrators whose paid function is to stop things from happening to save money.
     
    ladycatlover, EzzieD, Sarah94 and 9 others like this.
  16. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    32,940
    Likes Received:
    156,994
    Location:
    UK
    I think there is a legitimate area of concern here in some instance when children are normally looked after for most of the time in special schools with individual assistance and who may have serious behavioural and/or physical problems, and are now at home, perhaps with a single parent with other children to look after too, and with no help.

    There is also a legitimate area of concern with children in families where there is already psychological or physical abuse and who are now cooped up together with their abusers 24/7.

    I heard a headteacher of a special school and a parent describing the fact that in his school it is impossible to social distance because of the behavioural problems and care needs of the children, yet most of those children are now stuck at home getting no help.

    I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think we should dismiss the suggestion that social distancing is harming some children.

    All I can think of is that the government should have put in place a local authority run scheme of home visitors to help the parents in those situations, equivalent to the carers who visit and help disabled adults. Theoretically in the UK schools are supposed to be still catering for children with special needs and those being overseen by social workers, but I gather that's not happening in many cases.
     
    Sarah94, 2kidswithME, Hutan and 6 others like this.
  17. spinoza577

    spinoza577 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    423
    Likes Received:
    1,103
    Location:
    neet meer för lang süük
    I don´t say not to pay attention to the virus,

    but the virus does not seem to be of puplic danger.


    In an additional detail, as soon as there are any hints that children are not substantial transmitters, this should matter immediately.

    (And this may be even an approach from the wrong side.)
     
  18. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    32,940
    Likes Received:
    156,994
    Location:
    UK
    That I can't agree with. But discussing it is a topic for another thread.
     
    ladycatlover, Hutan, MEMarge and 2 others like this.
  19. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,856
    Likes Received:
    46,571
    [my bold]

    Where is their sound scientific evidence that social distancing is only having a marginal effect on reducing infection rate? If they really believe this then surely they are arguing that social distancing is unnecessary. Use of the word 'may' sounds like typical get-out-of-jail-card language. I fully agree that the consequences of social distancing can have a detrimental effect on children, but it's nonsense to downplay the other side of the equation. Such linguistic chicanery seems locked into the DNA of some folk.
     
  20. Justy

    Justy Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    193
    Likes Received:
    1,938
    A study out of Germany recently seemed to suggest that children can carry the virus and transmit it at the same rate as adults they are generally less ill with symptoms though. We believe we contracted it in our household from my daughters school - she only had two days of very mild symptoms whereas 45 days in myself and her dad are still struggling to recover (untested, suspected cases).

    I agree with Trish that many children are vulnerable right now and people are not getting the support they need. But many children also have health problems that make them vulnerable to the virus, or they have a vulnerable parent or grandparent that they live with etc. This mad rush to open schools is crazy.
    Also just thinking about the new cases of children being admitted to ICU units across the globe for a weird possibly related illness?
     

Share This Page