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Trial By Error: The Lightning Process Is “Effective”? Really?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Andy, May 20, 2019.

  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member & Outreach

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    http://www.virology.ws/2019/05/20/trial-by-error-the-lightning-process-is-effective-really/
     
  2. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I suspect that 'effective' may be being used in a non medical sense.

    The LP appears to be quite 'effective' when it comes to increasing revenue for instance.

    It also appears to be quite 'effective' as a propaganda tool.
     
  3. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Maybe we should be giving them more rope to hang themselves with
    If they think LP is legitimate science they should be happy to advocate widespread acceptance that its not quackery
    I would like to see them have to answer to this.
     
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  4. Suffolkres

    Suffolkres Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Trading Standards ...........???

    LP,

    or RT http://www.reverse-therapy.com/
    http://www.reverse-therapy.com/

    or

    MT Mickel Therapy.........

    A radical new approach to recovery

    Reverse Therapy is a simple educational process that teaches people to identify the triggers which prompt the body to create symptoms such as fatigue and unexplained pain.

    As soon as we understand the reasons for these alarm signals then awareness is raised and we start to 'listen' to Bodymind. From that point on we work towards eliminating the causes of bodily distress.


    Reverse Therapy was one of the first approaches to offer Body-focused therapy.

    We have been established since 2002 and since that time Reverse Therapy has been improved and extended so that it now provides a complete guide to recovery from medically unexplained illnesses such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia.



    David T's pursuit of LP and DR Segal really resonates, " .....

    I think it is especially important to highlight this point now because the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence is currently developing new guidance for the illness, which it calls ME/CFS. Your review, or future publications unwittingly promoting the Lightning Process as a credible piece of scientific research, could easily influence the opinions of those involved with the NICE process...."

    NICE 2007 stated further testing to be discouraged and that CBT and therapy approaches were recommended, but what about missed diagnoses and misdiagnosis?

    The following harrowing story of Suffolk man Mark Buckland, needs to be heeded. Mark was diagnosed by GP and consultant as having ME.

    Mark embraced the recommended approaches and chased the rainbow therapy of Lightening cousin, Reverse Therapy (or its other cousin, Mickel Therapy) at great cost, both financial, emotional and practical.


    This entry by Mark in his log below towards the end of 2005 was a mere 6 months before his death to New V CJD.
     
  5. MSEsperanza

    MSEsperanza Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thank you, @dave30th.

    (Re-using a comment I made on an other thread.)

    I don't know about Esther Crawley's relation to T. Segal (who not only approvingly refered to the SMILE trial in the recent paper David is refering to but is also the almost omnipresent author of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health conference's contributions on ME/CFS).

    Perhaps Segal received Crawleys "training package for the diagnosis and management of CFS/ME (2004) which [EC] delivered to all CFS/ME services", and maybe there is no (other) personal or professional connection.

    Anyway, this gave me a fright:

    Teaching
    http://www.bristol.ac.uk/social-community-medicine/people/esther-m-crawley/teaching.html

    http://www.bristol.ac.uk/social-community-medicine/people/esther-m-crawley/impact.html

    Edited
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  6. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It's definitely another own-goal in the making.

    We need to find LP material to expose it. Notes, documents, recordings, testimonies. It's obvious quackery that no credible medical professional should ever take seriously but that's hidden because of the secrecy that surrounds it.

    For comparison, this is partly how the KKK was kicked in the nuts in the US. A guy who worked on the Superman radio show infiltrated KKK meetings and exposed how laughable their rituals were and they became a laughingstock. Not comparing LP to the KKK but that exposing ridiculousness works even against an entrenched political force. LP being published in scientific journals seems credible because of its secrecy, but it's a complete black box, it doesn't stand the laugh test.

    And of course since certain PACE authors have vouched for SMILE the comparisons are easy to draw, especially as it reveals that you can cheat your way to the same vague self-reported questionnaire effect with LP as with the modified CBT or GET.
     
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  7. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  8. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Interesting.
    I think we do need to explore every avenue, these fraudsters will leave no stone unturned to sell their lies, we should do he same in exposing their lies.
     
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  9. theJOYdecision

    theJOYdecision Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    An amazing read! This is tragic =(
     
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  10. MSEsperanza

    MSEsperanza Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  11. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Great. Good list of testimonials, along with those from the blog that adds up to a good number. Really hoping for some material.

    Even better would be the notes for coaches, although participants' notes would be nice too. It shouldn't be too hard to find people who got sucked in and are mad at having been conned, but this kind of cult is generally quick with threatening lawsuits to enforce silence. Anyway if this stuff makes it into published literature it should have to be disclosed in full otherwise research that uses it is simply invalid.

    One thing that puzzles the crap out of me: what's with the prices? I see everything from 600 to 2000.

    There isn't much to find, unfortunately. Some quick finds:

    Registration form (note: confidentiality is required, not a cult, though): https://meagenda.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/lipcassfrmv2july10.pdf

    Weird PP presentation with colorful arrows and stuff: https://rsds.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/The-Lightning-Process.pdf
     
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  12. Andy

    Andy Committee Member & Outreach

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    http://www.virology.ws/2019/05/22/trial-by-error-my-latest-letter-on-the-lightning-process-study/
     
  13. andypants

    andypants Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The prices depend on when and where you did the course. In Norway it’s more expensive, naturally. In the first few years here when it was only LL who offered it I believe she charged £3000, but now that there are more coaches (and because people realized they could take an 1,5 hr flight to London and get it for £600-800) it’s around £1600.
     
  14. inox

    inox Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    As @andypants also says - it's impotant to be aware that both prices and how the courses have been conducted have changed over time (at least here), and individual coaches might have introduced their own variances.

    That's an obsticle we've faced with testimonies in Norway - not realising that things have changed over time. And people talking about their experience with LP beeing called liers, by people going at a later date or to a different coach.

    Not that I disagree with getting testimonials out in the public, just that it might be smart to be clear about this from the start, to make it harder to confuse and discredit.

    ---

    If it could be helpful, I'm sure the author of MElivet could be approached about perhaps translating some of the LP-post to english. She does have a few post also in english.

    ---


    There is also a testimonial by a someone herself a healer/alternative therapist. Wenche Tømmervik, her page: http://www.tommervik.no/

    She came to one of the norwegian facebook-groups, shocked by her experience when she escorted a friend with ME to a LP course lead by Live Landmark.


    https://melivet.com/2016/12/15/ble-...t-kurset-lightning-prosess-med-live-landmark/

    https://translate.google.com/translate?um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=no&client=tw-ob&sl=no&tl=en&u=https://melivet.com/2016/12/15/ble-kastet-ut-av-me-pasient-kurset-lightning-prosess-med-live-landmark/
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  15. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Don't know if this has been posted before, but thought it might be of interest.
    Understanding the Lightning Process Approach to CFS/ME; a Review of the Disease Process and the Approach

    Phil Parker, DO*i, Jacqui Aston, BSc (Hons)**, Fiona Finch, MSc DipCOT***
    *School of Psychology, London Metropolitan University, UK,**London, UK, ***Bath, UK
    http://jep.ro/images/pdf/cuprins_reviste/82_art_2.pdf

    no mention of jumping on circles, saying stop...

    It would be interesting to know how many LP practitioners there are in the Bristol, Bath area and how that number has increased since the publication of EC s trial.
     
  16. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I had a wholly involuntary inclination not to deign to give it credence. I doubt whether it could be altered.
     
  17. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    Is this journal the equivalent of self publishing? It’s just his Mrs and a mate innit. And he’s trying to pass himself off as an academic surprise surprise
     
  18. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    There is a comment from Janet Dafoe to the latest letter to Prof Pizzo saying that Ron knows him and will try and have a word. Let's hope they do things differently in the US-and take notice.

    It is of concern that there has been no response to the letter Segal. There comes a point at which one ceases to give a person the benefit of any doubt.
     
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  19. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Those sure are words, use in a particular linear fashion. They mean nothing, but they sure are words.
     
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  20. MSEsperanza

    MSEsperanza Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    -> https://www.s4me.info/threads/under...of-the-disease-process-and-the-approach.4888/ ;)
     

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