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Understanding the Lightning Process Approach to CFS/ME; a Review of the Disease Process and the Approach

Discussion in 'PsychoSocial ME/CFS Research' started by Adrian, Jul 5, 2018.

  1. Adrian

    Adrian Administrator Staff Member

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    Parker has written a Lighting process paper
    Journal of Experiential Psychotherapy, vol. 21, no 2 (82) June 2018

    https://www.researchgate.net/public...eview_of_the_Disease_Process_and_the_Approach
     
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  2. Cheshire

    Cheshire Moderator Staff Member

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    Genius.
     
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  3. Sarah

    Sarah Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    "An evaluation of the LP’s conceptualisation of the aetiology of the disease and the hypothesis behind its approach was undertaken, through a review of the literature and semi-structured interviews with the programme’s original researcher (this paper’s lead author)."

    I thought about what I think by reading what I've written and possibly talking to myself.
     
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  4. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The first thing I looked for was any declaration of conflict of interest......I am still looking.
     
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  5. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I still can't work out whether Phil Parker is an idiot, or someone who has just created a persona designed to appeal to, and manipulate, idiots.
     
  6. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Aaaaaaaaaaagh
     
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  7. Keela Too

    Keela Too Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    All those words and so little actual information!
     
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  8. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Its much, much worse than manipulating idiots. It is manipulating the desperate and vulnerable. …..or were you referring to Esther Crawley?
     
  9. EzzieD

    EzzieD Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Oh good grief. There's so much wrong with that extract that it's impossible to know where to begin. I guess one thing I can pick to say is: what 'evidence base'?

    Also, I think he uses a lot of big words but doesn't really know what they mean.
     
  10. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    He's making some wild claims:

    - That LP training allows people to "develop an awareness of which neurological pathways they are activating" and whether they are healthy or unhealthy.
    - That "cognitive, linguistic, embodied cognition and gentle movement techniques" can be used to interrupt those pathways.
    - That "structured and detailed re-vivification of appropriate reference desired states/memories" "activate new pathways that encourage improved physiology and restoration of homeostasis."
    - That LP can change the physiological response to exercise in ME/CFS.

    And probably a few others. He cites a few articles in support. I spotted the familiar names Selye, Langer, Carlson in the references. I'm too tired to go through them but very much doubt that any of them really support his claims.

    Importantly, I did not see any reference to an experiment that shows LP change change physiology in any (meaningful) way.

    The abnormal response to exertion in ME/CFS is objectively measurable. He risks having his claims actually tested and falsified.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
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  11. Dr Carrot

    Dr Carrot Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This isn’t strictly related but as we’re discussing the validity of the lightning process I thought I’d contribute this thought.

    There are lots of people who say they’ve benefited, even been cured by the lightning process. I know of two myself, both of whom are fit and well, and working full time. What are we to make of this? I know that they don’t have the same illness as me (whatever my illness is anyway), but they were clearly ill and are now well.

    The only reason I’m so interested in this, is if diagnosis / testing wasn’t such a mess my hunch is that these people would be put into a different pile from people with my specific presentation of symptoms.
     
  12. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Not much, without knowing any details. It's possible that they would be well and working even without LP.
     
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  13. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Dr Carrot did they convincingly improve exactly at the time of LP? There’s two confusing aspects: genuine/classic ME can fluctuate wildly and sometimes this might coincide with having done something (coincidentally) specific AND once someone has done LP you can no longer trust anything they say about how they’re feeling. If you have severe ME you obviously can’t fake being active but if you have mild ME this might be possible.

    Edit: worried I sounded too dismissive of people’s experience. I mean that once you accept a protocol which tells you not to tell other people you feel unwell, if people know that’s what you follow they will stop trusting your words as the means to tell how you are doing (because you say you’re doing well regardless of how you actually feel). It is a step beyond placebo and more into cult territory.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
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  14. Adrian

    Adrian Administrator Staff Member

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    With a fluctuating disease its hard to draw conclusions from a few cases which is why trials are needed. My feeling is that sometimes as people start to improve and feel a bit better they look around for new things to try that may help them. Then they try these and attribute improvement to them but this is where I think they may have improved anyway. So I'm always cynical about recovery and improvement stories that attribute the improvement to a cause. I did come across one person who was ill for two years and then just improved and was then well (he didn't mention any particular reason).
     
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  15. Dr Carrot

    Dr Carrot Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yeah in both cases they worked as marketed, I.e. a lightning cure. I just don’t know what to make of it...can you have ME-like symptoms that can be corrected by some sort of psychological process? The reason I bring it up is that as long as these genuine stories exist the waters will continue to be muddied regarding diagnosis and treatment.

    Edit: I’m sorry for taking this thread off track a bit - please keep discussing the paper.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  16. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    As far as I know there is a long history of claims that psychological factors can meaningfully affect disease processes but it always turns out to be nonsense.

    If LP can cure people in three days, it would be easy to prove that it works in ME/CFS by first demonstrating presence of PEM in patients via 2 day CPET, having them do LP, and then demonstrating improvement/absence of PEM.
     
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  17. Amw66

    Amw66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  18. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    is this a credible journal?

    who the hell would have been the reviewers for this article?
     
  19. Sarah

    Sarah Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    http://jep.ro/en/

    http://jep.ro/en/to-authors/reviewing-the-articles

     
  20. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    so....no.....and they want everyone to be fully aware that they are not.
     

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