Lou B Lou
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Could be. But would SAS risk the wide exposure of Garner's association with Norwegian Lightning Process Trainers. There is twitter and other history.
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Paul Garner on Long Covid and ME/CFS - BMJ articles and other media.
Could be. But would SAS risk the wide exposure of Garner's association with Norwegian Lightning Process Trainers. There is twitter and other history.
They may not award it to him, but I think it very likely he's been nominated, and has been interviewed as part of the decision making. Nominations closed in May, but the winner hasn't been announced yet.
https://senseaboutscience.org/john-maddox-prize/
https://senseaboutscience.org/john-maddox-prize/
Lou B Lou
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Paul Garner in the BMJ Blog 25th January 2021:
"I was put in touch with a PhD candidate in psychology from Norway who had completely recovered from post viral fatigue syndrome (CFS/ME) years ago and offered to share the recovery story. The story was very similar: no previous illness, no psychological problems, only long-lasting debilitating symptoms after an infection.
I was asked, “are you open to the idea that you can have an impact on your symptoms with your conscious mind?” I thought back to an earlier experience in my 30s with being able regulate my tinnitus after quinine, and said yes, straight away.
This opened the door that led to my recovery.... "
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/25/paul-garner-on-his-recovery-from-long-covid/
Not sure SAS would want to open that can of worms, after all, the audience for Garner's mind over matter nonsense is by no means limited to patients these days.
"I was put in touch with a PhD candidate in psychology from Norway who had completely recovered from post viral fatigue syndrome (CFS/ME) years ago and offered to share the recovery story. The story was very similar: no previous illness, no psychological problems, only long-lasting debilitating symptoms after an infection.
I was asked, “are you open to the idea that you can have an impact on your symptoms with your conscious mind?” I thought back to an earlier experience in my 30s with being able regulate my tinnitus after quinine, and said yes, straight away.
This opened the door that led to my recovery.... "
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/25/paul-garner-on-his-recovery-from-long-covid/
Not sure SAS would want to open that can of worms, after all, the audience for Garner's mind over matter nonsense is by no means limited to patients these days.
Jonathan Edwards
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
The trouble is that the SAS are really just a lot of old fogeys having a Mad Hatter's Tea Party. They will not notice any scandal or irony. They are coated in shellac, so water off a duck's back doesn't even touch it. Best to forget about them entirely.
Yes, as per other comments - he's rubbing salt into wounds here --- "recovered ME/CFS patient changed my beliefs, used cognitive approaches and GET, which led to my recovery; Nov: holiday. I have not been through LP".
So, if you'd followed his messianic advice/example you too would be diving on a coral reef somewhere --- tad insensitive, as well as totally bogus.
See he's now "emeritus", so he'll have lots more time to link up with his LP buddies --- what they could achieve together (as long as you don't try to measure it objectively!).
Could we just nickname him "Pastor Paul Garner" --- someone might just try to wind him up with that on social media.
Sense about Science -- sure someone has suggested (Non) Sense about Science
Arnie Pye
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I've seen several references to the SAS in this thread and all I can think of is the Special Air Services, but I've finally realised it is referring to "Sense about Science". (I think.)
apologies if I'm lowering the tone/standards here but thanks for posting this @rvallee :
"
Replying to
@PaulGarnerWoof
The natural LC recovery rates are in the range of 50-70% in the first 6 months. You are literally doing the same thing as people who drink their urine because it "cured" something. As an expert in medical evidence, you have reached absolute rock bottom, sir. Congrats!"
"
Replying to
@PaulGarnerWoof
The natural LC recovery rates are in the range of 50-70% in the first 6 months. You are literally doing the same thing as people who drink their urine because it "cured" something. As an expert in medical evidence, you have reached absolute rock bottom, sir. Congrats!"
rvallee
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Oh, that could be just any PhD candidate in psychology from Norway. Such a mystery.
Did SaS ever say anything about the LP? Do they even know what they are promoting here?
rvallee
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
And the dude is retiring. His last professional effort as an expert in clinical evidence is pushing a N=1 narrative that relates to a MLM cult-like business that is basically 11/10 on the pseudoscience scale and "enabled" him to overcome better than 50:50 odds.
The problem here is a system that leads people down this sorry path. The thinking and culture of medical evidence is clearly and obviously broken. Because here he is, celebrated for pushing awful pseudoscience.
Sometimes a movie quote says it all:
No country for old men said:
If it were just him shouting into the wilderness, I would agree with ignoring him. Sadly a lot of people are taking notice of him - media, Sense about Science, people with Long Covid who may be harmed by his advice. So I think it's worth challenging his claims politely and providing alternative perspectives and evidence.
Esther12
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
That's not what he said.
I've seen people making assumptions about his health that were not supported by what he said. I can see that this would be irritating.
I think at this point everyone has heard the counter arguments. Perhaps one or two responses are fine. But besides that I do not see any point in any more substantial engagement. And, I think, paying more attention to him probably has the effect of amplifying him more (both in terms of encouraging him and drawing more attention to him)
Do not feed the trolls, as they say
I agree with @Trish's point above. There are more and more new LC patients every day - many who have no idea of LC itself, let alone the existence or history of ME/CFS. I think it is worthwhile pushing back, lest the naive observer take lack of dissent as agreement.
However, I am happy to observe that "@cfs_research" had zero likes/engagement in the replies, which is completely appropriate.
Doubt we can hope he's retiring but I think Jonathan suggested - "Best to forget about them entirely"*. Thanks again for challenging him on Twitter.
*https://www.s4me.info/threads/paul-...les-and-other-media.15629/page-90#post-440793
Think we'll have to disagree on that one.
To me, in one paragraph/parable he sets out his decline and recovery [through his own mental powers no less] and announces that now he's off for his post recovery/retirement holiday --- picture diving on a coral reef. So long suckers, you chose the other path!
I don't think you can separate the picture from the statements.
Excellent response from @Caroline Struthers - thank you:
Caroline Struthers
@Healthy_Control
·
16h
Replying to
@PaulGarnerWoof
Was recovered ME/CFS patient Live Landmark? She charges £2000 for a 3-day LP course, when she can lead you to recovery with one phone call. https://livelandmark.no/lightning-process-norge/soknad-lightning-process/… She's now doing a trial of an intervention she has a financial interest in with people who say NICE are corrupt
Caroline Struthers
@Healthy_Control
·
16h
Replying to
@PaulGarnerWoof
Was recovered ME/CFS patient Live Landmark? She charges £2000 for a 3-day LP course, when she can lead you to recovery with one phone call. https://livelandmark.no/lightning-process-norge/soknad-lightning-process/… She's now doing a trial of an intervention she has a financial interest in with people who say NICE are corrupt
Esther12
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
The picture is part of the tweet, but it doesn't say "So long suckers, you chose the other path!"
He doesn't say "if you'd followed his messianic advice/example you too would be diving on a coral reef somewhere".
I think that there are problems with some of the things Garner has actually said, but I also think that there's a problem with some patients responding to things in his comments that aren't there. That's something that needs to be avoided imo.