Ketogenic diet

Sasha said:
Just scanning Sarah Myhill's 'PK Cookbook' book that was mentioned in the video interview posted in this thread.

In it, she says that people going keto can expect to spend two weeks feeling like crap while their bodies adapt, because they're not getting energy from carbs (which have been excluded from the diet) and their bodies haven't yet adapted to run on ketones.

I see that you ( @leokitten ) recommended jump-starting ketosis with a 48-hour fast. Did you feel OK after 48 hours, or did it take a while to adapt?

How long is it taking others to transition?
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I never got any keto flu at all or felt like my body was finding it hard to adapt really. And after my recent crash, two weeks after I started and where I ate carbs, I had to start again and it was just as easy. This second time it took a few more days to get into deep ketosis but there was never any feeling of being uncomfortable. My ME has always felt significantly better across the board when fasting, so the 48-hr initial fast, plus the other 48-hr IF I just did were fine.
 
sb4 said:
@leokitten I hear you on artificial sweeteners and don't like to use them either. The problem is not a sweet tooth, but just making meals not disgusting. If I can get dark chocolate to work then I don't have to drown my meat in butter making it a massive chore to eat and probably not good nutrient and mineral wise.

I previously found that high fat is less disgusting with low carb veg. I also found a study showing high fat on it's own causes gut inflammation but when combined with fibre there was no inflammation. Problem is this can lead to carb creep and isn't so good on the digestion sometimes.

I also think meat and butter is missing a lot of micros, even if you throw cheese in there.
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I never eat butter, why do you have to drown meat in butter? I just eat meats with seasoning. It's so easy with this diet to get enough fats from foods which are high in fat. The hard thing usually is to get enough protein.
 
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leokitten said:
I never eat butter, why do you have to drown meat in butter? I just eat meats with seasoning. It's so easy with this diet to get enough fats from foods which are high in fat. The hard thing usually is to get enough protein.
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What meats are you using?

Belly pork is one I can think of but unfortunately makes my gastroparesis worse. I think its that type of fat this is hard to digest wheras butter is already liquid in your stomach.

I'm not much of a connoisseur when it comes to food. When I was well enough to go around supermarkets in the UK I would read all the packaging in the meat isle but it was all too high in protein.
 
sb4 said:
What meats are you using?

Belly pork is one I can think of but unfortunately makes my gastroparesis worse. I think its that type of fat this is hard to digest wheras butter is already liquid in your stomach.

I'm not much of a connoisseur when it comes to food. When I was well enough to go around supermarkets in the UK I would read all the packaging in the meat isle but it was all too high in protein.
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You don't need to eat belly pork, or pork at all if it bothers you. I eat chicken with skin (all parts of bird), different cuts of steak, veal, lamb, duck, salmon, sardines, mackerel, scallops, the list goes on and on. There are so many choices.

Here's a good place to get your started: https://www.perfectketo.com/full-ketogenic-diet-food-list/
 
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leokitten said:
You don't need to eat belly pork, or pork at all if it bothers you. I eat chicken with skin (all parts of bird), different cuts of steak, veal, lamb, duck, salmon, sardines, mackerel, scallops, the list goes on and on. There are so many choices.

Here's a good place to get your started: https://www.perfectketo.com/full-ketogenic-diet-food-list/
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I see, the link provided says you don't need to worry much about protein when getting into ketosis, this is counter to what I thought. How much protein and fat are you getting per day?

As far as I understand it, ketosis is when a bottleneck is formed by oxaloacetate being too low. This signals the liver to make ketones and begin gluconeogenesis. I would think that if you have a lot of protein, then it is going to be burned through anaplerosis and some would get turned into oxaloacetate, delaying ketosis.

This has been my personal experience and my brothers. We both ate low / very low carb with high protein high fat for long periods of time. When we dropped to low/moderate protein, very low carb, and very high fat is when the ketosis benefits (weight loss, high energy, mental clarity) for him, and detriments (worse POTS) for me kicked in. So in our cases it seems protein intake needed to be lower for these benefits, although I think mine may have dropped too low, we will see this time around.
 
sb4 said:
I see, the link provided says you don't need to worry much about protein when getting into ketosis, this is counter to what I thought. How much protein and fat are you getting per day?

As far as I understand it, ketosis is when a bottleneck is formed by oxaloacetate being too low. This signals the liver to make ketones and begin gluconeogenesis. I would think that if you have a lot of protein, then it is going to be burned through anaplerosis and some would get turned into oxaloacetate, delaying ketosis.

This has been my personal experience and my brothers. We both ate low / very low carb with high protein high fat for long periods of time. When we dropped to low/moderate protein, very low carb, and very high fat is when the ketosis benefits (weight loss, high energy, mental clarity) for him, and detriments (worse POTS) for me kicked in. So in our cases it seems protein intake needed to be lower for these benefits, although I think mine may have dropped too low, we will see this time around.
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As I mentioned in earlier posts, keto sites have very different and conflicting recommendations on protein intake to stay in ketosis. I only gave that link on perfectketo to show you what other kinds of meat you can eat.

Please go here to find the best ketogenic macro calculator and find out your macros: https://www.ruled.me/keto-calculator/

If you find that you aren't in ketosis after following the macros calculated for you, then simply adjust.
 
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Arnie Pye said:
A keto diet isn't supposed to be high protein. It's supposed to be moderate protein.
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Yes this is what I was saying. When I had high protein vlc I wasn't in ketosis. When I lowered protein to moderate I was.

leokitten said:
I only gave that link on perfectketo to show you what other kinds of meat you can eat.
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I have done the calculator and it has come up with what I was already aiming at. 20g Carb 96g Protein, 190g fat. The problem is if I buy the meats in question without adding butter I will way overshoot the protein before I get anywhere near fat. Perhaps UK supermarkets are worse for getting rid of fatty cuts than US ones?

To get to this amount I would need about as much butter as meat, as at best usually you get 1g pro per 1g fat. It would therefore be much easier if I could say get 600kcal from meat, cheese, butter, and 400kcal from high fat chocolate or other desert type thing that is easy on the stomach. Then I can have 2 meals a day and the food would be tolerable. Without desert I need to drown everything in butter.
 
@Trish Good idea!

@Keela Too Dem PUFAs tho. I guess I could attempt to make my own mayo (with blackjack and hookers) with butter, and eggs. Hmmm.

@Sasha Did you have to build up to this or could you do it from the get go.
 
sb4 said:
I have done the calculator and it has come up with what I was already aiming at. 20g Carb 96g Protein, 190g fat. The problem is if I buy the meats in question without adding butter I will way overshoot the protein before I get anywhere near fat. Perhaps UK supermarkets are worse for getting rid of fatty cuts than US ones?
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Does your body type need to consume 2174 calories per day? If you are with ME and worse than mild severity I highly doubt you need this many calories unless you are a tall person. If you are overweight you should've also put a 20% deficit in the keto calculator I mentioned. I'm male, 180cm, early 40s, 187 lbs, am probably much more active than you are currently, and I am consuming only 1550 - 1700 calories per day. What weight I'm losing is happening slowly because I think with ME our basal metabolic rates are quite low.

There are so many foods that are pretty much all fat or have a ton of healthy fat. For me it's not hard to get enough fat, it's hard to get enough protein. Avocados, cheeses, cream cheese, sour cream, other dairy products, olive oil, seeds, etc.
 
Has anyone had problems with their OI when transitioning onto the keto diet?

I ask because a few years ago I attempted intermittent fasting but tended to become faint and so my doctor advised me to give it up.
 
Sasha said:
Has anyone had problems with their OI when transitioning onto the keto diet?

I ask because a few years ago I attempted intermittent fasting but tended to become faint and so my doctor advised me to give it up.
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I understand it is important to keep salt levels up. If you aren’t getting it with food, then a little in water can help - in my experience.
 
@leokitten Yeah your right, I don't need 2000kcals. Especially keto I would be eating under since I have about 30kg above my old lean self, (think lot of this is water though). I tend to set myself the goal of 2000kcals because I tend to get sickly full and can easily go under. Interesting, I might have to try cream cheese and double cream. Thanks, I worry a little about the lack of electrolytes but I am doing things to correct this.

@Sasha Yes definitely. I experienced a large worsening of POTS due to keto the last couple of times I attempted it. I was supplementing electrolytes but couldn't get it to work. I think something else might have been going on.
 
@sb4 If you are hoping to lose a few kg, then you don’t need to push up the fat angle once you are fat adapted - the reasoning being that your body will then turn to your own fat stores to find the calories required. Once you no longer need to lose, then you might want to up the fat again to prevent further weight loss.

There is an interesting bit on fat in the diet, near the end of the first video at this link:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/member/interviews/naiman?autoplay=237261

I don’t think this video is on the free part of the DietDoctor site, but there’s a free trial month you could try..
 
Keela Too said:
I understand it is important to keep salt levels up. If you aren’t getting it with food, then a little in water can help - in my experience.
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I was already supplementing with electrolytes when I tried it... :(

sb4 said:
@Sasha Yes definitely. I experienced a large worsening of POTS due to keto the last couple of times I attempted it. I was supplementing electrolytes but couldn't get it to work. I think something else might have been going on.
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Were you able to continue? I live on my own and I'm a bit worried I'd pass out and/or become too disabled to keep going until any good effects turned up.
 
Sasha said:
Were you able to continue? I live on my own and I'm a bit worried I'd pass out and/or become too disabled to keep going until any good effects turned up.
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No but I wouldn't be worried about giving it a try. When I entered ketosis (usual in morning) and my POTS increased, all I need do is eat some carbs and wait 30-60mins and then I was back to normal.
 
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