Ketogenic diet

Sasha said:
In a post at the other place, @leokitten defines lean weight as total weight minus body fat. (Before I read that, I hadn't even noticed the word 'lean'!).
Click to expand...

I suspect it depends which website or book you read. It's not an exact science and most of the people running the sites are enthusiasts rather than scientists, I suspect.

The main thing, from what I've read, seems to be to get enough protein but not to overdo it. If you are going to use fat as your energy source and go into ketosis, you don't want to eat lots of surplus protein that can be used as an alternative energy source instead of fat.

I haven't seen any of the sites or books I've looked at specifying that you have to have your body fat measured scientifically.
 
Last edited:
I've been googling a bit to see what glucose/ketone meters the NHS recommends in the UK (given that the Keto-Mojo one that @leokitten recommends doesn't seem to be available here).

Several NHS places (including NHS Wales) have a standard sheet that recommends the Freestyle Optium and GlucoMen LX Plus. The former is £52 on Amazon UK and I'm not sure that the latter is available to the public - I can't see a price.

Expensive! I'm not sure if the cheaper ones can be trusted. Does anyone have any thoughts?
 
Arnie Pye said:
Amazon product ASIN 1908261153
I don't have a smart phone, or any mobile device that can run My Fitness Pal, so I use the book I've linked as a guide to fat, protein, and carb content of many basic foods.
Click to expand...

I can't see Amazon links (must be my ad-blocker) - what's the title and author of the book, please?

I'm realising that I can just get this info off my food packets and use a spreadsheet - I think I'll do that, probably...
 
Sasha said:
I can't see Amazon links (must be my ad-blocker) - what's the title and author of the book, please?

I'm realising that I can just get this info off my food packets and use a spreadsheet - I think I'll do that, probably...
Click to expand...

Carbs & Cals Carb & Calorie Counter: Count Your Carbs & Calories with Over 1,700 Food & Drink Photos!

by Chris Cheyette and Yello Balolia

Edit : Make sure you get the latest version.
 
Last edited:
Sasha said:
I'm realising that I can just get this info off my food packets and use a spreadsheet - I think I'll do that, probably...
Click to expand...
That's what I've done. You can calculate the calories per gram from the fact that 1 gram of carbohydrate or protein has about 4.5 calories, and 1 gram of fat has about 9 calories. I made the mistake at first of working out the percentages of each using grams rather than calories. For things that don't come in packets with carbs etc listed, like fruit and veg, you can find lists on free websites.

Edit - just to be clear, I haven't actually tried the keto diet yet, just exploring and learning at this stage.

Edit - it may be 4 cals per gram for carbs and proteins. I get different answers from different sources.
 
Last edited:
Trish said:
That's what I've done. You can calculate the calories per gram from the fact that 1 gram of carbohydrate or protein has about 4.5 calories, and 1 gram of fat has about 9 calories. I made the mistake at first of working out the percentages of each using grams rather than calories. For things that don't come in packets with carbs etc listed, like fruit and veg, you can find lists on free websites.
Click to expand...

Thanks! That's v. helpful.
 
Is there any guidance on what kind of different fats to use in what proportions? Given my food intolerances, the normal meal plans are impossible for me so I'm having to strip it down to the basic requirements.
 
Sasha said:
Are there any food calculators for the keto diet that aren't apps (for those who aren't mobile enough to have mobile devices!)?
Click to expand...

Use chronometer on your computer. You can enter any food or group of foods and it will give you a breakdown of the macro nutrients (as well as many micro nutrients if you are interested).
 
Only popped back onto this thread because I was just re-reading Fluge and Mellas research from 2016;

"We hypothesized that ME/CFS is associated with defective oxidative metabolism involving PDH, leading to increased utilization of ketogenic amino acids to fuel the TCA cycle."

https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/89376

eta: doesn't this mean we are already using more ketogenic amino acids than healthies?
 
Last edited:
I've been blundering through a book called 'The Ketogenic and Modified Atkins Diets: Treatments for Epilepsy and Other Disorders' and it mentions pyrovate dehydrogenase deficiency (and mitochondrial disease) as conditions that the diet is likely to help.
 
Trish said:
I have been reading an article about SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth), and its symptoms of abdominal bloating and brain fog.
See this thread.

I have also read in the past about people (who don't want to use the usual antibiotics for SIBO) treating SIBO with keto diets to starve out the small intestine bacteria which feed on the carbs in the diet.

Putting two and two together and probably making five, I wonder how many of the people with ME who find their brain fog and gut symptoms clear on a keto diet who attribute this to ketosis may in fact be seeing those improvements not as a result of ketosis but as a result of the SIBO bacteria dying off. Similarly with fasting.

Any thoughts?

Edit to add: I've just googled SIBO symptoms:


Further edit: I'm not in any way suggesting SIBO is the whole story with keto diets and ME, but wondering if it could be a contributing factor to the symptom change experienced by some people on keto diets.
Click to expand...

In the beginning of my problems I highly suspected that SIBO was the underlying problem for all my symptoms, probably because I felt that there is a very strong connection between what I eat and how I feel, and the fact that starving bacteria(all meat diet) for a day or two would kinda like push a reset button, so to speak. I wouldn't feel normal, but much much better. Then I would begin eating normally and get back to the same place again. To some extent this is still true, although it doesn't work as well anymore.

All in all, I feel that at least for me, there are two components when it comes to GI tract: feeding or not feeding bacteria (limiting carbs and fibers) and general GI hypersensitivity, which is not directly related to bacteria (e.g. sensitivity to seasonings, honey, dairy, wheat, etc). It's not really the overgrown bacteria in the small intestine (SIBO) or wheat or dairy that is the real problem, but the way GI tract and immune system copes with it. I suspect that it's not even the microbiome that is at fault, but the gut cells are somehow malfunctioning. Although, I have to say that SCD(specific carb diet) was very helpful in the beginning, I suspect because of it's modulating ability on the diversity of gut microbiome(source: SIBO conference, L. Weinstock), but it wasn't a cure by any means. I think scientists may be paying too much attention on microbiome and not enough on the gut integrity and what's going on there and why.

Sorry I went a bit off-topic.
 
Sid said:
Side effects listed were:

Click to expand...
5 of the 174 children are reported as suffering from obtundation. ??
Wikipedia said:
Obtundation refers to less than full alertness (altered level of consciousness), typically as a result of a medical condition or trauma. The root word, obtund, means "dulled or less sharp" cf. obtuse angle.
Click to expand...

A handy word for me to know :confused:.

Anyway, catching up with this thread.

@Sasha, you mentioned possibly wanting a tool to calculate protein, fat, carbohydrates, fibre that wasn't on a phone. I have the My Fitness Pal on my laptop. I chose it because I needed one on my laptop, it was too hard on my phone. An app really makes tracking things much easier. I'm amazed that even quite niche New Zealand brands are loaded in the system.

On the estimation of the daily amount of protein, and the need to estimate percentage of body fat for that calculation, I used an online calculator that had pictures of female silhouettes, from very thin through to very fat. So, I just picked one that looked roughly right and that gave the percentage of fat. I think it's mostly a matter of making a reasonable guess to start with and then using the GKI etc from the meter to fine-tune.

For most of the last week I haven't tracked food as I have an idea what a compliant day of food is now (oh, yeah, there was the incident of the green tea on/in my lap-top that slowed tracking things for a while too :facepalm:). I do the blood test every few days to see if things are ok and so far they are (ketones around the 1.4/1.5 mark).

I think there might be something in this diet idea. I'm doing a lot more without getting bed-confining PEM. It's not a cure but I'm pretty sure it helps. I did a huge amount yesterday including shovelling a 1m3 of soil from a pile to a wheelbarrow to a trailer, and I'm still functioning today. (:nailbiting: perhaps I should wait until tomorrow before feeling that PEM has been dodged.)

I need to experiment with being a bit deeper into ketosis. Once I've tried that and stuck with things for a few more weeks, I'll go back to a more normal diet and see if there is a difference.
 
I've just discovered, to my surprise, that my local Boots has a weighing machine instore that measure body fat (I've read that some Lloyds Pharmacy and Tesco stores also have them). Boots doesn't mention these machines on their website, as far as I can see - perhaps they're hoping to sell their bathroom scales (some of them measure body fat).

I'll be along there later. :)
 
Sasha said:
I've been blundering through a book called 'The Ketogenic and Modified Atkins Diets: Treatments for Epilepsy and Other Disorders' and it mentions pyrovate dehydrogenase deficiency (and mitochondrial disease) as conditions that the diet is likely to help.
Click to expand...

Yup. The trouble is that in ME/CFS many more enzymes and metabolic pathways are busted; it’s not an isolated problem with PDH. Especially in women with ME fat oxidation isn’t working well either (Naviaux comments on this in the supplement to his metabolomics paper) so eating a fat-based diet makes little sense.
 
It says here on MitoAction to avoid fasting (my bolding).

Diet The Ketogenic diet (used sometimes for those with seizure disorders) can be a stressor for those with mitochondrial disease. This diet increases cellular utilization of thebeta oxidation pathway. This diet can be helpful for those with a pyruvate dehydrogenase disorder. Avoid diet deficiencies of any kind. It is important for patients to have a balanced diet including pyridoxine (B6), ferrodoxin, iron, copper, riboflavin (B2), zinc, and selenium as well as other vitamins and/or minerals. Avoid fasting! A state of hyperglycemia can also be toxic and lead to problems similar to those of diabetics. Hyperglycemiacan cause increased superoxide production (oxygen free radical) in the endothelium, which can lead to a vascular endotheliopathy (vessel wall dysfunction and metabolic derangement). Some foods like peas, beans, legumes, and almonds have substances in them that can be toxic to the mitochondria.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom