Ketogenic diet

[Sasha]

I know it's really hard to decide what to do, given all the + and - anecdotal and scientific evidence. As I mentioned in my reply to @Nathalie Wright, we have ME and it's a really horrible, life destroying disease. There is no solid scientific evidence for any treatment. It's all trial and error, and with trial and error comes risk. There will always be a risk for us to do any intervention, and on the flip side there is also a risk for doing nothing too.

Like i mentioned in my previous reply, maybe experiment with combining keto, IF, and also some stretches of including higher carbs with healthy vegetables etc.

Yes, I'm knocking on a bit now and am very mindful of the risks associated simply with being so utterly inactive.

Sorry, what's IF?

Can you/anyone recommend a good summary of how to start/transition/do the diet (sorry if you've already done this - I'm reading back through the thread now but my ability to read is currently poor).

 

[leokitten]

I don't think I agree with Dr Myhill (and others) historical references about diet tho.
It depends on which part of the world you are talking about; eg she does mention bananas a lot, well they are available all year in the countries where they are grown (ie there is no 'season').
As are, generally speaking, potatoes.

I'm not knocking the keto diet per se, just dont think the historical 'this is how man used to eat' rationale necessarily follows (I don't think people used to have easy access to almond milk,coconut cream and avocados etc(?)).

I think there is a big difference in doing the diet to purely lose weight (if you need to) and doing it to improve health if you are ill. How this all ties in with ME I haven't the faintest.

I think you are missing the point. Just because man didn't have almond milk, coconut cream and avocados doesn't mean that for millions of years of evolution our ancestors and us didn't eat with similar proportions of macros.

The important point @Sly Saint is that Homo sapiens and our ancestors did not evolve eating the amount of carbs and the frequency of eating that we experience in modern times. We only started to understand that we could plant food and grow it 10,000-12,000 years ago.

In many areas of the world, hunter gatherers did not eat many carbs at all, and they commonly went days without food.

 

[leokitten]

Yes, I'm knocking on a bit now and am very mindful of the risks associated simply with being so utterly inactive.

Sorry, what's IF?

Can you/anyone recommend a good summary of how to start/transition/do the diet (sorry if you've already done this - I'm reading back through the thread now but my ability to read is currently poor).

Intermittent fasting.

I tried to give a summary of my transition and recommendations in my OP.

 

[Sasha]

Intermittent fasting.

I tried to give a summary of my transition and recommendations in my OP.

Thanks! I tried to read your OP before I posted and clearly didn't make a good job of it - sorry to have asked a duff question. Really am having trouble taking things in at the mo.

 

[Sly Saint]

We only started to understand that we could plant food and grow it 10,000-12,000 years ago

that's a long time ago! I shan't argue the point as 'each to their own' and as I said before I am not knocking the diet if people are finding it helpful.
but this is an interesting read:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...ent-ancestors-paleolithic-diet-food-evolution

 

[leokitten]

that's a long time ago! I shan't argue the point as 'each to their own' and as I said before I am not knocking the diet if people are finding it helpful.
but this is an interesting read:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...ent-ancestors-paleolithic-diet-food-evolution

Ahem... in terms of evolving to such a diet 12,000 years is NOTHING. We haven't evolved to support modern diets, if you need more evidence just look around and see how many lifestyle diseases and other ailments human beings are constantly afflicted with. Yes some are due to pollution etc, but a huge part of it is our DIET.

And ketogenic IS NOT paleo!! They are not even close to similar at all.

Paleo you can eat as much carb, protein, and fat calories as you need and there isn't any set percentages of each. Paleo is more of a lifestyle than a diet and it centers around removing certain food groups, like no grains, breads, pastas, and dairy (aka the things Paleo people believe humans in the Paleolithic era didn't eat). But with Paleo you can gorge yourself on high carb vegetables and fruits, and you can eat tons of protein. Most people on Paleo are definitely not even close to being in ketosis. With Paleo you can gorge yourself on protein as well, you cannot do this on keto.

 

[sb4]

I would try to avoid any sugar substitutes, stevia, erythritol, etc. as much as possible, keto or otherwise. They are proven to trick your body into thinking you are eating sugar and promote insulin resistance since your body pushes out more insulin into the bloodstream when it thinks you are eating sugar.

I think this is generally good advice but as lots of recipes where using erythritol I decide to google it and found this study saying it has no insulin response. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8039489

I here you on the dark chocolate I just find the taste revoulting for some reason. I am going to force myself to eat some every day in hopes my taste buds adapt. If it is my body responding to a certain mineral like copper or iron then I probably wont adapt but we will see.

@Sly Saint I see it like this. If your metabolism, leptin, insulin response is messed up for any reason, then a diet either super high in fat and vlc or super high in carbs and vlf will help stabilize blood sugar and cause minimal insulin release. A mixed diet can cause problems in this context, and for whatever reason, our modern like promotes these problems.

Another idea is that if you live in the uk, your anscestors will have been eating seasonally. Your genetics will be used to seasonal eating. Your body pays attention to the change in season and expects for example, in winter you will be low carb. Consistently messing with your bodies congruence in this way could lead to problems. If you live in central africa and are in strong sunlight often. Your body will be expecting carbs year round so there is no incongruence there. Plus your ancestors will have eaten this way.

Another idea is that when you go super high carb or high fat, you either consume less PUFA (in particular linoleic acid) or store less PUFA (ketosis will cause it to get burned preforentially). Linoleic acid and PUFAs in general cause oxidative stress easily, form the worsed kind of prostaglandins, cause inapropriate insulin sensitivity, and would not be in excess in the majority of paleo diets, compared to diets with lots of vegetable and seed oils like modern diets. I think excess pufa is a big problem, and eating a standard western diet you get a lot of PUFA. Ketosis helps you get rid which I think is big.

 

[leokitten]

I think this is generally good advice but as lots of recipes where using erythritol I decide to google it and found this study saying it has no insulin response. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8039489

I here you on the dark chocolate I just find the taste revoulting for some reason. I am going to force myself to eat some every day in hopes my taste buds adapt. If it is my body responding to a certain mineral like copper or iron then I probably wont adapt but we will see.

One study doesn't mean it's settled science, very far from it. I would also avoid in general because it keeps your brain wanting sweet tastes, instead of rewiring your brain to get used to never caring for sweet things anymore. I've been on this diet 3 weeks or so now and I never want anything sweet even when I'm in the grocery store surrounded by desserts. I used to definitely have a sweet tooth and I think part of it is due to ME and the fact that with a standard diet I couldn't get enough energy. I would constantly be hungry for carbs.

Combine the dark chocolate with something else to cut the taste, for example almond butter and dark chocolate taste really good together.

 

[Trish]

I am going to force myself to eat some every day in hopes my taste buds adapt.

I can't help wondering, why bother? I haven't eaten chocolate for years since I suspected it was one of my migraine triggers. I loved it, but I really don't miss it.

I went gluten and dairy free back in the 1980's. Back then there weren't any readily available substitutes that tried to mimic things like bread and cheese, so I very quickly developed the philosophy of finding new things to eat that were easy to prepare and gave me a healthy balanced diet without trying to mimic what I used to eat.

I occasionally now try gluten and dairy free bread, cakes or biscuits, but find them all pretty disgusting. I wouldn't even attempt to recreated chocolate pudding or anything else I can't have. I simply eat something else enjoyable instead.

 

[Skycloud]

@sb4 Re a chocolate dessert - Have you tried looking into recipes that use avocado as the base to make something similar to a mousse? I've eaten this before, but never made it (someone else did and once I bought it) so I can't recommend any recipes. It tasted good to me.

 

[Sasha]

Just scanning Sarah Myhill's 'PK Cookbook' book that was mentioned in the video interview posted in this thread.

In it, she says that people going keto can expect to spend two weeks feeling like crap while their bodies adapt, because they're not getting energy from carbs (which have been excluded from the diet) and their bodies haven't yet adapted to run on ketones.

I see that you ( @leokitten ) recommended jump-starting ketosis with a 48-hour fast. Did you feel OK after 48 hours, or did it take a while to adapt?

How long is it taking others to transition?

 

[Sasha]

BTW, thanks so much for starting this thread, @leokitten - it's very interesting indeed and I'm so pleased that you're doing so well.

 

[Nathalie Wright]

Why not just try a low carb diet to begin with - try 100g carbs per day and see how you get on with it, possibly reducing to 50g after a few weeks. Add natural, healthy fats and oils

Just scanning Sarah Myhill's 'PK Cookbook' book that was mentioned in the video interview posted in this thread.

In it, she says that people going keto can expect to spend two weeks feeling like crap while their bodies adapt, because they're not getting energy from carbs (which have been excluded from the diet) and their bodies haven't yet adapted to run on ketones.

I see that you ( @leokitten ) recommended jump-starting ketosis with a 48-hour fast. Did you feel OK after 48 hours, or did it take a while to adapt?

How long is it taking others to transition?

I feel like should've stuck it out now, but I was so scared of triggering a more severe ME relapse... Since stopping strict keto I haven't eaten more than 50g carbs (so that's for the last 2 days.) But will I have to start from scratch in terms of my body adapting?

 

[Sasha]

I feel like should've stuck it out now, but I was so scared of triggering a more severe ME relapse... Since stopping strict keto I haven't eaten more than 50g carbs (so that's for the last 2 days.) But will I have to start from scratch in terms of my body adapting?

According to Dr Myhill, once you've been keto for a good while, you can drop off it to stuff your face at a party and will easily adapt back. I wonder if that suggests that if you've already spend a few days trying to adapt, you've got a slight head start. I don't know, of course!

I sympathise with your worries - I'm also scared of getting worse and not being able to get back to where I was, and two weeks is a long time in the hole.

 

[Nathalie Wright]

According to Dr Myhill, once you've been keto for a good while, you can drop off it to stuff your face at a party and will easily adapt back. I wonder if that suggests that if you've already spend a few days trying to adapt, you've got a slight head start. I don't know, of course!

I sympathise with your worries - I'm also scared of getting worse and not being able to get back to where I was, and two weeks is a long time in the hole.

It's terrifying living on a tightrope int it? I think I'm gonna try low carb (50g/day) for a bit cos it's easier & I don't have much desire to eat loads of carbs now anyway. & then if that's alright try keto again. But it's confusing - I don't know if that's a waste of time because my body won't be in ketosis? Anyone know? Surely it's at least a stepping stone, becoming used to much lower levels of carbs...

 

[Sasha]

It's terrifying living on a tightrope int it? I think I'm gonna try low carb (50g/day) for a bit cos it's easier & I don't have much desire to eat loads of carbs now anyway. & then if that's alright try keto again. But it's confusing - I don't know if that's a waste of time because my body won't be in ketosis? Anyone know? Surely it's at least a stepping stone, becoming used to much lower levels of carbs...

I was thinking that low carb would be a stepping stone but now that I've read that bit of what Dr Myhill said, I wonder if it just means that you're not getting much energy either way because you don't have enough carbs and you're also not in ketosis and so aren't utilising ketones either. But I don't know enough biology to know if I'm talking any sense at all!

 

[Sasha]

It's terrifying living on a tightrope int it?

I've just read Dr M saying that when you're transitioning between carbs and keto you feel more anxious - which of course is awful if you're already worried about whether you're doing the right thing!

 

[Arnie Pye]

I feel like should've stuck it out now, but I was so scared of triggering a more severe ME relapse... Since stopping strict keto I haven't eaten more than 50g carbs (so that's for the last 2 days.) But will I have to start from scratch in terms of my body adapting?

I would be surprised if you had to go right back to the start again, in terms of adapting back to a keto diet. But I'm not an expert and can't prove it.

 

[Nathalie Wright]

I've just read Dr M saying that when you're transitioning between carbs and keto you feel more anxious - which of course is awful if you're already worried about whether you're doing the right thing!

One of life’s little sick jokes!!

 

[sb4]

@leokitten I hear you on artificial sweeteners and don't like to use them either. The problem is not a sweet tooth, but just making meals not disgusting. If I can get dark chocolate to work then I don't have to drown my meat in butter making it a massive chore to eat and probably not good nutrient and mineral wise.

I previously found that high fat is less disgusting with low carb veg. I also found a study showing high fat on it's own causes gut inflammation but when combined with fibre there was no inflammation. Problem is this can lead to carb creep and isn't so good on the digestion sometimes.

I also think meat and butter is missing a lot of micros, even if you throw cheese in there.

I am trying to keep away from PUFAs so no nut butters for me. Even macadamias cause gut issues.

@Trish Like I say above, if I can get choc to work, it sorts out my micro nutrients a lot better, particularly mg and K. It will allow me to get in a decent chunk of my fat so that I don't have as much butter with meats making them disgusting.