Independent advisory group for the full update of the Cochrane review on exercise therapy and ME/CFS (2020), led by Hilda Bastian

The page says that the meeting will be co-chaired by Fiona Godlee. I hope your question(s) will be addressed directly rather than evasively.
My question (below) was not addressed at all!

"Would you agree that a register of interests should cover doctors who develop and conduct publicly funded trials on social and psychological interventions? These trials influence national guidelines so are even more influential on patients than individual doctors. By the same token, shouldn’t the scope of a Patient Safety Commissioner include harm caused by the promotion of such therapies when the evidence may have been generated by doctors with vested interests?"
 
I'm not in Pago Pago
Revised timescale is now a few days after the previous timescale........
I thought that too - but unfortunately it turns out there's actually one day less, because the 31st is a bank holiday in the UK (and that's where it needs to go online and the email will be sent out). Plus I want it to go online at a time when I'm not asleep. So going public might end up a day or two over.

PS: Just hit me - that *is* what you meant. Because I was already the day ahead, when I counted 3 it was *with* the 31st.
 
I think the key thing is the people involved:
So there's a group of authors:
You can see biographies and disclosures of interests of the authors here. They bring a great depth and breadth of expertise to the project, and we are grateful to them for their commitment:

  • Consumers: Mary Dimmock (USA, carer, with ME/CFS activist background), Kay Hallsworth (UK, person with ME/CFS, non-ME/CFS-activist background);
  • Clinicians: Todd Davenport (USA, physiotherapy), Julia Newton (UK, medical);
  • Systematic reviewers with relevant methodological expertise: David Nunan (UK, experience with systematic reviews of exercise as an intervention); Argie-Angeliki Veroniki (Greece, statistician);
  • Systematic reviewers from Cochrane response: Hanna Bergman (Israel), Nicholas Henschke (Germany, lead author).
For the consumer reps, the aim was to have 'Different experiences/beliefs about exercise' represented. It's nice to see @Medfeb on the team, but having consumers with different beliefs about exercise for ME/CFS writing an exercise review makes as much sense as ensuring that you have a believer in climate change and a disbeliever in climate change writing a climate change review.

It will be interesting to see if there are any dyed-in-the-wool BPS proponents in the the other roles.



And there's the Independent Advisory Group
To achieve a balance of independent appointment and community representation, for the three positions representing people with ME/CFS internationally I invited organisations to hold these positions: the participating individuals are their nominees.

IAG membership (eight appointed, two vacancies)
:
  • Nominees of three organisations representing people with ME/CFS:
    • Penelope McMillan (with Penelope Del Fante, and proxy, Geoffrey Hallmann) (Australia) - ME/CFS Australia;
    • Jaime Seltzer (USA) - #MEAction;
    • Samuli Tani (Finland) - European ME Alliance;
  • Two people from a clinical background with active interest in ME/CFS:
    • Lily Chu (USA) (medical practitioner);
    • Peter Gladwell (UK) (physiotherapist);
  • Individuals who had been involved in discussions with Cochrane preceding the IAG:
    • Hilda Bastian (Australia, Lead);
    • Mike Clarke (Ireland/UK, systematic review methodologist); and
    • George Faulkner (UK, independent researcher).


I don't know all the people in the IAG, but I have some reservations. @Hilda Bastian, what made you choose ME/CFS Australia as one of the international consumer representative organisations? This is a very very small organisation and, despite its name, it is not a national organisation. That said, I think the ME/CFS Australia people involved are not fans of GET.

Aside from the issues with the selection of participants, it looks ok I think. There is an aim to get a protocol out for a short public consultation later in the year and produce the review next year.
 
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Well, to be fair, I guess they never did promise openness or democracy in the choice of participants in this process.

Given that S4ME specifically asked back in November 2019 to be 'kept informed of progress, and with a view to possible involvement' (see our open letter here), I am disappointed that we and other ME organisations were not even informed that the process of putting forward names of possible participants had started, let alone how our possible nominees were supposed to apply.

Please someone correct me if I have forgotten an announcement of the positions being open and applications invited, and I will correct this post.
 
Just further on the selection of ME/CFS Australia - recent financials available on the Australian companies register show Emerge (edit - the largest Australian ME/CFS organisation) had an annual income of $897,000 and an annual expenditure of $650,000. ME/CFS Australia Ltd had an income of $5008 and an expenditure of $1300.

Emerge has quite a lot of paid staff, ME/CFS Australia have none.
 
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I think the key thing is the people involved:

And there's the Independent Advisory Group


I don't know all the people in the IAG, but I have some reservations. @Hilda Bastian, what made you choose ME/CFS Australia as one of the international consumer representative organisations? This is a very very small organisation and, despite its name, it is not a national organisation. Why not engage with Emerge? That said, I think the ME/CFS Australia people involved do understand the problems with GET.

Aside from those points, it looks ok I think. There is an aim to get a protocol out for a short public consultation later in the year and produce the review next year.
Well, to be fair, I guess they never did promise openness or democracy in the choice of participants in this process.

Given that S4ME specifically asked back in November 2019 to be 'kept informed of progress, and with a view to possible involvement' (see our open letter here), I am disappointed that we and other ME organisations were not even informed that the process of putting forward names of possible participants had started, let alone how our possible nominees were supposed to apply.

Please someone correct me if I have forgotten an announcement of the positions being open and applications invited, and I will correct this post.
"To achieve a balance of independent appointment and community representation, for the three positions representing people with ME/CFS internationally I invited organisations to hold these positions"
I would have thought S4ME would have been an ideal (the ideal) organisation to be invited to have a representative on the IAG. It is truly international.
 
For those of our members who are unable to read the amount of text in this announcement, I'll be attempting to create a summary of what seems to be the key points so that you can get a better idea of what is going on. Of course, if anybody else wants to do that, I'll be delighted to not have to do it.

ETA: See here, https://www.s4me.info/threads/indep...ed-by-hilda-bastian.13645/page-51#post-347648, for the highlights.
 
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"To achieve a balance of independent appointment and community representation, for the three positions representing people with ME/CFS internationally I invited organisations to hold these positions"
I would have thought S4ME would have been an ideal (the ideal) organisation to be invited to have a representative on the IAG. It is truly international.
We probably offered too many criticisms.... ;)
 
I don't know all the people in the IAG, but I have some reservations. @Hilda Bastian, what made you choose ME/CFS Australia as one of the international consumer representative organisations? This is a very very small organisation and, despite its name, it is not a national organisation. Why not engage with Emerge? That said, I think the ME/CFS Australia people involved are not fans of GET.

Penelope McMillan (with Penelope Del Fante, and proxy, Geoffrey Hallmann) (Australia) - ME/CFS Australia;

I know of these representatives from ME/CFS Australia through various social media groups and local support groups. I'd be surprised if any of them favoured GET in any form whatsoever. They all seem to be very well-informed and motivated.

Penelope McMillan is on the forum so I hope she'd be responsive to ideas and feedback from members here.
 
For this updated review, there will be a new protocol. After peer review, it will be released for a very short consultation period – we hope to reach that point in the third quarter of the year. There will be opportunity for stakeholders to raise their concerns in virtual meetings, as well as in writing, before the protocol is finalised and published.
I am very pleased to see this. I am a little concerned at the 'very short' consultation period. I hope that will allow time for sick and/or busy people to review, discuss and edit their submission, especially group submissions where members will want to be consulted in the process.
I have no idea what is meant by 'very short'. I would expect about a month to 6 weeks would be a reasonable minimum, especially given how long the process has taken so far, it would be a pity to stumble at this vital stage for want of a few more days.
 
For the consumer reps, the aim was to have 'Different experiences/beliefs about exercise' represented. It's nice to see @Medfeb on the team, but having consumers with different beliefs about exercise for ME/CFS writing an exercise review makes as much sense as ensuring that you have a believer in climate change and a disbeliever in climate change writing a climate change review.

It will be interesting to see if there are any dyed-in-the-wool BPS proponents in the the other roles.

I don't mind if there are people from outside the community that opposes GET, as long as they do not have conflicts of interest. They should be easy to convince with the information that is available and their presence makes the review more credible.
 
Well, to be fair, I guess they never did promise openness or democracy in the choice of participants in this process.

Given that S4ME specifically asked back in November 2019 to be 'kept informed of progress, and with a view to possible involvement' (see our open letter here), I am disappointed that we and other ME organisations were not even informed that the process of putting forward names of possible participants had started, let alone how our possible nominees were supposed to apply.

Please someone correct me if I have forgotten an announcement of the positions being open and applications invited, and I will correct this post.
Firstly, I agree that the long period without a public report was a serious problem: I can't do more now than apologize for that, and am happy to discuss how that came to be - with all the pressures of the pandemic, much that needed to be re-negotiated, and the desire to still reach the same goal, things didn't go according to the original plan.

I'm sorry if it wasn't clear that people were welcome to contact us with suggestions etc - in the March posting, we said suggestions were coming in. My apologies if it wasn't clear that this was welcome. We did note the email address to which enquiries could be directed.

When I became familiar with the open letter, I emailed S4ME, asking to whom I could respond (that was 19 May 2020). I replied exactly as I advised to, sending my answer to the open letter on 31 May 2020. There, I indicated that S4ME was being considered. This was at the same time as my participation in this Forum was being discussed. I consider my involvement in this Forum engagement with S4ME, and would think many others would see it that way. Indeed, I have received several messages from people thanking me for it, including encouraging me not to be deterred by the frequently discouraging comments made here. I have responded to every email I got from S4ME, and as I indicated in the report, added documents submitted by S4ME for IAG consideration to the list of past comments/critiques analyzed.

There were clearly discussions with multiple organizations representing people with ME/CFS - obviously the organizations which are now represented on the IAG, but others as well. Indeed, there were discussions ongoing with Cochrane with some people even before I was involved. I also obviously followed discussions on that topic - here, on Twitter, at other ME/CFS organizations, etc. The ultimate decisions about appointments, however, were mine: although I had lots of discussions and considered the advice of quite a few people with ME/CFS, none of those people should be considered responsible for any deficiencies people see with any of this.

Membership of the IAG was always going to be limited, and so could not be the only vehicle for groups' involvement in the process, and it won't be, now that the "hot" phase of the review from an external point of view has begun. And finally, I think it's important to keep in mind that, as described in yesterday's report, there is still a position on the IAG that the IAG will decide on. All the people and groups that indicated interest in participating will be considered, along with discussions and suggestions from that group about how to go forward with this.

I agree, of course, that there have been many weaknesses with the process so far - but I don't think non-communication by me with S4ME is one of them.
 
Although the Infectious Diseases group is not responsible for the review on exercise therapy in CFS, reaching out to Prof Garner is worthwhile. Is that possible @Hilda Bastian? I dream that he would be able to sit on the review committee, or otherwise that he would provide the committee with an expert commentary/input given his position at Cochrane.
Yes - thanks for drawing my attention to it, though. We've been messaging/emailing about all this. Yes, I expect he will be contributing his views, and definitely keeping up with emerging data and research on post-Covid effects.

These posts are from last year back when Garner was stating clearly that the Cochrane review was crap. @Hilda Bastian As you are probably aware, he was 'got at' by the Lightning Process people and persuaded to believe all sorts of nonsense about thinking yourself better from his post covid symptoms with happy thoughts, in the process throwing us under a bus with is nonsensical claims of curing himself of ME/CFS he clearly never had.
I hope you will steer well clear of him.
 
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