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Experience with Lightning Process course 2008, Norway

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic theories and treatments discussions' started by Parsnip, Jul 2, 2021.

  1. hellytheelephant

    hellytheelephant Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thank you so much @Parsnip for sharing this traumatic experience- you are courageous to do so, and it is much appreciated.
    the more people who know the reality behind this vile practice the better.


    :hug::hug::hug:
     
  2. rainy

    rainy Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Location:
    Norway
    Thank you @Parsnip for sharing. It's so important that stories like this are heard. I admire the strength it took to get all this down, and all the details you remember.

    It really means a lot to me to hear your story, I felt so lonely for so many years because all the stories I heard about LP was people that recovered. It made me feel insane, cause the LP to me made no sense, and it was a horrible experience, how come there weren't more patients like me that didn't get magically cured from it? I'm so happy the ME communities on the internet have grown and we can have support in each other.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2021
  3. Caesar

    Caesar Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thank you for sharing @Parsnip .

    I'm sorry you had to go through this. This (LP) is just crazy. I'm speechless and numb after reading this.

    It's a shame that in 2021 we must fight against the worst quackery of all time. It's a scandal. It has always been a scandal. This must end!
     
  4. Nightsong

    Nightsong Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    As it happens, I was just reading another story from another of the many victims of this reprehensible process.

    The mendacity and malevolence of Parker and his LP quacktitioners are simply obscene. Encouraging participants to lie to themselves, lie to others, and to disconnect from fellow-sufferers and sceptics alike are techniques of cult indoctrination; in a just and sane world, Parker and his band of flying monkeys would be languishing in prison for a very long time. If this "process" were not masquerading as psychotherapeutic, it would be seen for what it so clearly is: coercive control and abuse.

    Thank you for sharing your experiences, @Parsnip; it must have been very difficult for you to do so, and I hope most sincerely that you will fully heal from the cruelty and abuse that you suffered at their hands.
     
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  5. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That's usually just there as a warning so they can say "we told you so" when they try to pressure but there is unlikely that there is a basis for this. None of this is technical or proprietary in a formal sense. Not to say it's impossible they would try anything legal but there isn't much of a case, it's a scare tactic. There have to be reasonable grounds for it.

    Not a lawyer, but there are broader implications here, especially with publicly-funded trials. Since this is not technology, it wouldn't be covered, there is no patent to be had for this junk. They may whine but as we know, it's actually hard to get people to comply to ambiguous things. This needs to be publicly denounced, their very public attempts at making this legitimate demand this.
     
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  6. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yeah so this is 100% a cult and frankly every single medical professional enabling this needs to be fired for cause, zero tolerance. At best it's gross negligence. And good comparison to Scientology, it sounds basically the same.
     
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  7. DokaGirl

    DokaGirl Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Agreed.
     
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  8. DokaGirl

    DokaGirl Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Parsnip

    Thank you for your very detailed info on this appalling activity. How awful for you to have to go through it. It was very brave of you to write this down. It is so sad by doing so, you re-lived this experience.

    This definitely smacks of a cult. And, contravention of basic human rights.

    To be threatened with being detained if you don't write that you're healthy is astounding. And, IMO unlawful.

    It's unfathomable how these people have been able to get away with this. The only explanation I can think of is that governments and the medical system hold pwME in such contempt that they support and encourage this cruel treatment of people with this debilitating physical disease.

    This looks like a brainwashing exercise from top to bottom. And, not only of pwME.

    In not addressing this shocking treatment, decision makers are revealing their view of pwME as those undeserving of human rights.

    I hope that this might be taken to human rights commissions and other like organizations.

    Thank you again @Parsnip for your recounting of your experience. It is good to get this information out there.

    :hug:
     
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  9. Ravn

    Ravn Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Getting your story out into the public sphere is important, thanks for your courage @Parsnip. I hope the act of writing it down together with the knowledge that your effort is going to help others can go a little way towards healing from the trauma of living through this horror.

    Sadly I doubt the LP and similar "therapies" will ever be made illegal for "consenting" adults - though how a pressured and desperate person of any age can ever be considered consenting is another matter - but maybe a ban for children is feasible? And it must surely be possible to at least push those "therapies" out into the murky fringes where all the wacko cults live so as to make it unacceptable for mainstream medicine and social services to recommend such "therapies" or, worse, require them to be undertaken. Highlighting, as you did, the similarities to cult indoctrination methods should help. Ditto similarities to gay conversion therapy - which is becoming increasingly unacceptable and embarrassing to be associated with - are worth highlighting to undermine the slick marketing machine of the LP and related practitioners.
    :hug:
     
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  10. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thank you @Parsnip for sharing that. I'm sure there will be many families who, in hindsight, realize they have been taken advantage of, used as a means to gain access to a vulnerable person.

    It is a dreadful experience for the patient but I can also see how a parent, guardian or carer might feel looking back on how they were encouraged to participate in the coercion themselves.

    That's a lot of devastation to wreak on a family.

    I don't know enough about law to state much with certainty but I would question the whole issue of consent here.

    If the patient has cognitive difficulties, if the patient feels so unwell they'll say anything to make the LP practitioner leave them alone, if the patient's carers withdraw some or all support or threaten to do so. etc.

    So consent might be given by someone who doesn't fully understand or under duress. If it's under duress then it's not consent.
     
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  11. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Very, very well done @Parsnip for bringing this out into the open.
    If that were provable in a court of law, then I'm sure it would be a criminal offence. I suspect this whole process is littered with them, let alone the obscene immorality of it all. It's a disgusting self-serving enterprise.

    "They won’t tolerate any behaviours that prevent you getting the success that you deserve." What, like answering 'No' to a question asking if the treatment has healed you?!

    Why am I not surprised that Esther Crawley endorses this unadulterated crap.
     
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  12. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @dave30th FYI as background info, if you've not already seen this thread.
     
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  13. Sid

    Sid Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thanks for sharing this harrowing experience, Parsnip.

    It’s very difficult to speak about informed consent or free will once treatments like this are out there in the public consciousness, promoted by the media and, increasingly, the medical system. The situation is dire for teenagers. Even for adults who are in a severe state and dependent on physical care and financial support from their families, saying no is very hard. Most ppl don’t have a clue about anything and will believe any media story shared on Facebook by other clueless ppl, and if you are unfortunate enough that it’s your own family and friends falling for scams, it’s hard to say no to what can be relentless pressure or even outright abuse like denial of food.

    I remember ppl telling me to drink bleach (a popular internet treatment for autism at the time) years ago when I had severe ME/CFS and it’s very hard to explain to gullible idiots why this is a bad idea. “Don’t you want to get better? It cured such-and-such daughter’s allergies.”
     
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  14. Parsnip

    Parsnip Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thanks for listening and all the comments everyone. I've not been able to go through all of them, i might come back and answer more at a later time.

    Yes, i'm not planning on going after my coach per say. That being said, there was a girl in her 20's who asked if we should exchange contact information. My first thought was, but we were told not to? Feeling as if that was wrong. Second thought, why the hell am i thinking i should listen to anything my coach says? I still have her handwritten note, with email and full name... We didn't talk much, only a few messages back and forth after the course.

    I didn't get the impression that she felt she was doing anything wrong by asking, or was trying to be mischivious, so i dont know if my coach forgot to tell her she were not to have contact outside the course.

    I've considered contacting her, but have not, as 1. if she has manged to move past this i dont want to bother her and 2. if someone for some reason needed to confirm my story, it would be better if an independent person asked how she remembers what happened.

    We were also a 'large' group 5-10 people, and there was atleast one woman who also seemed confused when my coach 'put me in my place' with the reason you are sick is because you ask too many questions.

    I personally believe my coach messed up at that point, but she didnt even realise how bad it looked bad. As nobody had acted sceptical or anything up til that point. But that makes me wonder what the LP instructor training teaches them. I felt like she thought 'aha' now i have identified a 'doubter' so i'll implement the 'not let anyone ruin this for the others' step. But it had the opposite effect.

    She should really have just have deflected my question with some pseudo-scientific nonsense and moved on quickly before one could pick up on her not answering the question. But since she did not do that, i think they are not pure pure con-artists, more that they are (or atleast were) true believers. Like they can do this method to induce the placebo effect or something, and therefor "activate the bodies channels", so that it will fix itself of whatever ails you.


    I want to add, during signing the contract she also mentioned they also did home visists. Following it up with that they had atleast gone home to one child/teenager who were to sick to attend a course.

    I know they say they have cured people who were completly bedridden. I find it difficult to believe that child appreciated whatever it was administered.


    That is horrifying. And not something one should have to explain to others why its a bad idea. I'm sorry you have had people like that arround you when you were in a state were you should have gotten support.


    I am really sorry to hear about that. In a way i am happy my coach acted so out of line, as it was really easy to see this was wrong. As one do not treat people this way. I really thought everyone saw LP for what it was. So finding out a few years later they had bought into it, hit me hard.


    This is how i see it aswell. They wouldnt have gotten away with this unless the attitueds towards people with this diagnosis was so low.
     
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  15. Parsnip

    Parsnip Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    And yes, this... sigh
     
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  16. DokaGirl

    DokaGirl Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    "Then you are not allowed to leave."

    Threatening confinement?

    Shocking.
     
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  17. Parsnip

    Parsnip Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    yea... I want to point out again, not excuse her behaviour, but that this was a long time ago. And they were new at this when i took the course, so they have hopefully calmed down a bit.

    I also do seem to remember reading somewhere Live said they do not hand out any papers. (I'm taking that as dont hand out any paperes 'anymore'). I havn't been able to find that reference, but the way i've seen them talk about LP, it seem more 'educational', probably pure pseudo-science crap, but still, might be administered in a 'milder' manner.

    I still believe this could have turned into a full blown cult though. And horrified that some people want it into the norwegian health care system. It's so messed up.
     
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  18. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I appreciate what you're saying here - they may not do that anymore, the trainer maybe wasn't very experienced, even though that behaviour shouldn't have been considered as acceptable by anyone.

    However, I think it highlights another aspect of the cult like behaviour, the built-in bullying & control.

    LP seems to be set up so that any criticism of what trainers say or do & how they conduct themselves, regardless of the course itself, can be turned back on the participant. They're too questioning, not ready to take a leap of faith etc.

    Manipulation 101 & no real !mechanism to.lodge complaints and have them followed up.

    Their trainers aren't members of any professional body, so there's no authority to report them to.
     
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  19. Art Vandelay

    Art Vandelay Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  20. Parsnip

    Parsnip Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes, and in our case, blame us for not wanting to get healthy, or are not doing it right. Which conveniently fits the public perception, and they get away with whatever the are doing.

    I read some more about cults, they say it's common knowledge amongst magicians & hypnotherapists that a subset of a population are more succeptible than others. Like when they bring a person onto stage, that person will act like a chicken, not because they think they are a chicken, but they got a bit carried away and just went a long with the show.

    They say cultists/leaders dont care why you do something, as long as you do what they want. And the more suggestible part of the population, due to personality traits, isolation, desperation or whatever, is exactly the type of people they would want to recruit.

    The LP people do keep repeating "we only want the people who are the most motivated" line. And their application even says, read my book, and only join us if you are very certain you want to as not to waste your time and money. So in one way they are honest, and at the same time playing hard to get, playing on people psychie, so that you get curious and/or need to 'proove' yourself to join, by relinquishing personal control. The more you give away, the more likely you are to rationalize for yourself that it was worht it, as that is better than admitting to being tricked, making it more difficult to leave, you give away more of yourself and rinse and reapeat.

    Which is bound to wreak havoc on a persons psychie. And as you say, it ends up 'being' the persons fault, as they somehow 'chose' this. When they in fact, most likely, were exploited when vulnerable.



    And this. They have the potential to cause so much hurt and damage. And for what? Community, money, a sense of power? It would have been nice if people were more inclined to start harmless knitting societies crafting minature dog sweaters.



    Yes i unfortunately doubt that aswell. As i've read more about cults, it looks like there are plenty of them around (really extreme ones), and not much one can do seeing as we live in a 'free' society.

    I do like to think it could help with more with aweareness of the phenonomen though. So that more people can recognize the signs, for themselves or others, and then hopefully see whats happening before its too late. As people do seem to be aware that there are cult-like societies out there, they just don't realise when its right in front of them, or think it's for 'stupid/gullible' people so they somehow deserve to be tricked and that would never happen to them, as they are ofc not 'stupid/gullible'.

    At the same time, for instance, they might try to think it a good idea to integrate something cultish into the Norwegian health care system...

    Edit: clarifiaction
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2021
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