David Tuller: Trial By Error: Steve Brine's Troubling Claim in Parliamentary Debate on ME

Snowflake said:
On second thoughts perhaps the laws which give patients the right to refuse treatments should protect them from having their benefits cut if they refuse treatments. In which case the DWP would be breaking the law if it was cutting benefits for this reason
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The following is from the German perspective: As far as I know it is legal to refuse benefits/payments if one refuses "accepted" (i.e. "evidence-based") treatments. The thinking behind that is that the society's wellbeing (here: financial interests) is above the individual's right of autarchy, i.e. if you refuse a treatment that will help you (that's the assumption behind "evidence-based"), that's your right, but it's society's right to stop helping (financing) you. You always have to do your best to get healthy and to avoid (intentional) worsening, or else sickness payments etc. can be stopped.
 
I’ve done a bit more research on this, here is what I’ve learnt so far...

In England, patient’s rights are set out in the NHS Constitution for England. These rights only apply to their treatment under NHS care so I don’t believe they are applicable to the welfare system. (I.E. they don’t protect patients right to refuse treatments outside of the NHS).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-for-england/the-nhs-constitution-for-england

On the other hand, the legislation relating to welfare and benefits is set out in the Welfare Reform Act 2012. This lists all the claimant responsibilities for the various benefits. I don’t think it says anywhere that claimants have the responsibility to undergo any medical treatments to be eligible for any benefit. I will scrutinise it a bit more to try to ascertain whether anything in there could construed in that way. But right now I’m feeling optimistic that the law is on our side... :thumbup:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/contents
 
Inara said:
The following is from the German perspective: As far as I know it is legal to refuse benefits/payments if one refuses "accepted" (i.e. "evidence-based") treatments. The thinking behind that is that the society's wellbeing (here: financial interests) is above the individual's right of autarchy, i.e. if you refuse a treatment that will help you (that's the assumption behind "evidence-based"), that's your right, but it's society's right to stop helping (financing) you. You always have to do your best to get healthy and to avoid (intentional) worsening, or else sickness payments etc. can be stopped.
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I think that moving towards this type of model was the thinking behind the controversial 2017 Green Paper, available at:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...th-and-disability-green-paper-improving-lives

See the following for a brief summary of the issues and further links:

https://www.centreforwelfarereform.org/news/spartacus-re-green-paper/00319.html
 
Snowflake said:
I’ve done a bit more research on this, here is what I’ve learnt so far...

In England, patient’s rights are set out in the NHS Constitution for England. These rights only apply to their treatment under NHS care so I don’t believe they are applicable to the welfare system. (I.E. they don’t protect patients right to refuse treatments outside of the NHS).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-for-england/the-nhs-constitution-for-england

On the other hand, the legislation relating to welfare and benefits is set out in the Welfare Reform Act 2012. This lists all the claimant responsibilities for the various benefits. I don’t think it says anywhere that claimants have the responsibility to undergo any medical treatments to be eligible for any benefit. I will scrutinise it a bit more to try to ascertain whether anything in there could construed in that way. But right now I’m feeling optimistic that the law is on our side... :thumbup:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/contents
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The latest report on the 2017 Green Paper on Welfare Reform for disabled and sick people (incorporating the responses to the consultation) show where the government are currently at in their desire to bring about change in this area:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...-the-future-of-work-health-and-disability.PDF

I think it's possible that Brexit has overshadowed this work and put some of these debates/proposed changes out of the public eye. Sorry, I'm not currently up to producing a summary of the issues from these lengthy papers.

Maybe this topic of welfare reform deserves it's own thread, as it's definitely going to impact many people with ME?
 
MEMarge said:
The Centre for Welfare Reform would probably know the answers to these qustions.

I am pretty sure that someone from there attended the NICE scoping meeting in May. Nathalie Wright was chatting to him afterwards. @adambeyoncelowe may know his name. Have just had a quick look at their website and they have info on the #ME debate.
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I think I know who you mean, actually, but I can't remember his name. I'll ask Nathalie.
 
Thank you @Simbindi for these really helpful links about the Green Paper.

Simbindi said:
Maybe this topic of welfare reform deserves it's own thread, as it's definitely going to impact many people with ME?
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I did a quick search and was surprised to see this Green Paper on Welfare Reform does not appear to have been discussed anywhere on the forum yet (but perhaps I missed something?)

This topic of welfare reform is a huge subject and like you say, is going to impact many people with ME. So I’d say it definitely deserves its own thread. We also appear to have wondered off topic here...
 
Snowflake said:
Thank you @Simbindi for these really helpful links about the Green Paper.



I did a quick search and was surprised to see this Green Paper on Welfare Reform does not appear to have been discussed anywhere on the forum yet (but perhaps I missed something?)

This topic of welfare reform is a huge subject and like you say, is going to impact many people with ME. So I’d say it definitely deserves its own thread. We also appear to have wondered off topic here...
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It is a bit off topic now. However, one thing that underlies the Green Paper on welfare reform for those on ESA is that is is based on the same kind of pseudoscience as is the BPS model of ME (and the RCGP training). I think there is a huge can of worms here. I will try to make comments relating these issues together in the relevant threads as and when I get the chance.
 
Simbindi said:
It is a bit off topic now. However, one thing that underlies the Green Paper on welfare reform for those on ESA is that is is based on the same kind of pseudoscience as is the BPS model of ME (and the RCGP training). I think there is a huge can of worms here. I will try to make comments relating these issues together in the relevant threads as and when I get the chance.
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this thread is applicable:
https://www.s4me.info/threads/uk-de...erm-unemployed-disabled-people-launched.7556/
 


Yes, Brine seems to have resigned because he voted against the government on the No Deal Brexit vote.
 
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