BMJ: Rapid response to 'Updated NICE guidance on CFS', 2021, Jason Busse et al, Co-chair and members of the GRADE working group

can we get NICE to make a statement about whether or not they were pressured by patients?

It would be of no evidential value. They could hardly say that they were. Anyone making such a claim should show their corroborative evidence. The fact that NICE came to conclusions which some interested parties do not like is not evidence of pressure by one party. If the decision were now, somehow, to be reversed what would that indicate?
 
She came to a talk I gave about PACE--a small group of maybe a dozen. When she introduced herself she tried to defend "GET" as not all the same. I didn't really understand what she meant until I looked at her study and saw how she was using the term GET, which was definitely not a la PACE.
Yes. That trial is well intentioned I think, and starts off by saying ...
Graded exercise therapy and cognitive behavioural therapy are two management techniques that have consistently helped patients with CFS. However, of the three randomised controlled trials that assessed graded exercise treatment, none accounted for the cyclical nature of symptoms. It is unclear whether the benefits reported reflected the outcome of the treatment, the fluctuating nature of the syndrome, or a combination of both.
That is the only reference to graded exercise therapy, as a specifically named intervention implying GET, in the whole paper. But it then goes on to say ...
Our aims were:
■ To confirm or refute the outcomes of previous trials that reported physiological and psychological improvements associated with graded exercise in CFS subjects.
■ To determine whether a 12-week program of graded exercise would result in a significant improvement in attentional function in CFS sufferers.
I get the strong feeling, as I think you have already suggested, that the authors seem unaware of "GET" as a specifically named and very specifically defined exercise regime, which at its core disregards and rejects all notions of pacing. GET and pacing are mutually exclusive, so you cannot possibly have a treatment arm of GET-with-pacing! Which clearly shows that the therapy applied in this trial was not GET, even though the introduction seems to suggest the trial's aim is to vindicate (or not) "graded exercise", which the authors clearly conflate with GET.

It seems they did a useful trial, and maybe demonstrated that pacing up to, but at least just within, a patient's sane limits could be helpful for some, and that this form of treatment - by definition - was not GET, but their own form of symptom-sensitive graded exercise. Not at all appreciating that GET, which they seemed to be aspiring to retest, is not in the least bit symptom-sensitive, but actively requires insensitivity to, and riding rough shod through, patient's symptoms. To the uninitiated the difference might seem trivial, but it is actually massively important. The difference between a pilot being sensitive to how close an aircraft is to its stalling point, and thereby remaining airborne, or insensitive to it, and stalling out of the sky; it can be a very fine difference. So many people just don't seem to "get" it.

It's extremely worrying when scientists work to reproduce the validity of a treatment that is not the treatment they actually think it to be. They do all the clever stuff, and hard work, without double checking the most elementary of their assumptions. And then others accepting at face value the validity of their findings.
 
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Yes, I am quite pleased with having managed to be succinct.

The GRADE people really do seem to have put their foot in it. If it is now official that GRADE would rate the evidence from PACE as good enough to based guidelines on then maybe NICE are entitled to say no thanks to GRADE in the future. Having been told they are incompetent by the GRADE crowd might have an interesting impact on NICE's loyalty to GRADE.
 
Yeah, it's more like within your current energy levels, can you engage in modest increases in activity? I didn't view it as GET--the core element of which is that you stick to the plan no matter what.
So I think this is what @PhysiosforME have highlighted as symptom contingent pacing as opposed to time contingent pacing, symptom based picks up from E Goudsmit etc. One patient centered the other one size fits all push through.
 
So I think this is what @PhysiosforME have highlighted as symptom contingent pacing as opposed to time contingent pacing, symptom based picks up from E Goudsmit etc. One patient centered the other one size fits all push through.

Still worries the heck out of me though. Exactly what I tried to do for years and it's done me no favours. One could argue that maybe the damage was done before I realised about PEM though I didn't know enough to call it that.

The crux of the matter being is it possible for damage to be done without triggering symptoms? I strongly suspect it is.

Edit -spelling
 
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I get the strong feeling, as I think you have already suggested, that the authors seem unaware of "GET" as a specifically named and very specifically defined exercise regime, which at its core disregards and rejects all notions of pacing

Yes. And honest reviewers would have made clear in a review to separate out any findings from this trial from any analysis of GET.
 
I've written a blog (with the help of Evelien) where I analyse the rapid response by Guyatt and colleagues.

https://mecfsskeptic.com/the-nice-guideline-committee-and-grade-methodology/

Busse et al. criticize the NICE committee because “their guideline does not provide a GRADE evidence summary of findings table for fatigue related to exercise interventions.” This is incorrect. NICE provided hundreds of pages with additional documentation that contain GRADE summary tables for all outcomes and interventions. They have simply grouped the trials differently than the Cochrane review.
 
Thanks very much, @Michiel Tack, for explaining it in an understandable way for those of us who struggle to make sense of numbers and statistics. Your piece has made it a lot clearer.

Two tiny edits:–

Who Are the Authors?, paragraph #2: name misspelled as 'Flottrop'
Risk of Bias, paragraph #1: I think the word 'neither' is missing after 'even though'.

(Apologies if that sounds like nitpicking...proofreading is one of the few former skills I've managed to hang onto, at least some of the time!)
 
Interesting bit of CV for Dr Busse:
Dr. Busse has been active clinically in the management of disability secondary to chronic pain and other medically unexplained syndromes since 1999 and currently serves as the Clinical Director for Prisma Health Canada – a private company that manages chronic claimants (5+ years on disability) referred by private disability insurers. From 2001 to 2010 Dr. Busse was the Director of the Complex Claims Division for ATF Canada, a private company that provided assessment and treatment for patients in receipt of long-term disability benefits.

No mention of this in the competing interests. It would be interesting to know how he came to be first author this RR.
 
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