I don't understand this. All of that information is already integrated at the metabolic level. If you've had prior activity and not enough recovery time for e.g. redox balance to be adequately restored, then your metabolic state will actually be quite different. Leptin also acts at that metabolic level directly. Again, it's positing an additional unnecessary accounting mechanism
I can only say that's a false assumption. And what matters is not just the metabolic state of specific muscle cells, but also extracellular concentrations of metabolites reaching sensory neurons
I was referring to predictive how Snow Leopard used it to describe your proposition
That isn’t the only way to keep track of things, or the only way to utilise accounting, though. I understand that «accounting» is also a part of predictive models, but that doesn’t mean that any accounting = predictive model exists.
Actually it's tracked by the bidirectional relationship between SIRTs/clock genes and NAD/NADH ratios [edit: i.e. redox balance]
This is the expertise of my former professor
I think I inserted the word model where it wasn't actually necessary to get my point across. What JE is positing is that the brain keeps track of activity independently from sensing metabolic state--that's what I'm arguing against and that's what the previous use of the word predictive referred to
I'm sorry Jonathan, I don't know how else to explain that redox shifts occur every single time cells produce ATP. Which has been known since the 60s, and the [edit: evidence is expansive and] readily available. I apologize if I am using terminology which you are familiar with in different contexts--perhaps you are thinking of it more in terms of "crises" of redox balance occurring in certain diseases
Yes, though I apologize, I don't see what your point is. All metabolic information is inherently "integrated "over time at the metabolic level, no need for neural “timekeeping”
@Jonathan Edwards
Why is a brain accountant for physical activity «unnecessary»? A system for keeping track of the inventory in a warehouse isn’t unnecessary because it’s possible to just go and count the boxes, or because some at one isle will be able to keep perfect track of what’s happening in their proximity.
I think there might be a misunderstanding--I'm not arguing against the capacity of the brain to receive or integrate that sensory input from other parts of the body. I'm arguing against the idea that the brain doesn't use [edit: any of] that input from metabolic state of other parts of the body in order to do this "accounting"
I don’t think it has been argued that the brain doesn’t use signals from metabolic states. It would be brainless (excuse the terrible pun) to not utilise the available info.
There's certainly evidence that the thresholds of that "accounting" can be modulated by the brain. We know that hypothalmic hormone secretion changes in response to starvation, for example. But [edit: that modulation still acts on, and] still always requires, input from other parts of the body, particularly metabolic signals (though different signals than in e.g. muscle fatigue).
Thank you for spelling that out for me - I needed it!
I still may be incorrect on my interpretation, happy to get clarification. I'm also supplementing what has been said in other threads months ago at this point. The thread has certainly made a lot of twists and turns!
At the moment I have something weird going on - I say at the moment because there are various things over the years (.severity of illness,medication, comorbidity) that could mean it’s new or it could just be because I never measured it much. My blood pressure has normally been on the low side going by hospital measures, gym (took it 3times in row) etc over the years but I seemed to remember back then it never was when I mentioned it at last GP.
