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Rethinking the treatment of CFS — a reanalysis and evaluation of findings from a recent major trial of GET and CBT (2018) Wilshire et al.

Discussion in 'PsychoSocial ME/CFS News' started by Tom Kindlon, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. Russell Fleming

    Russell Fleming Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Not sure if this has been covered on this forum, but Forward ME has managed to get its letter published by The Times today:

    ME Association blog:

     
  2. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Esther Crawley?
     
  3. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Let me qualify that @Sly Saint.

    No registrar of mine would have been dumb enough to say, sincerely, what Stone said about PACE in relation to a piece of work they had no vested interest in.
     
  4. Carolyn Wilshire

    Carolyn Wilshire Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    He's doing his best to support his mates and his own strongly-held beliefs, but he must have been a little too overconfident to actually read the paper. We provide the answer to his question above right there in the text:
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  5. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Patients undergoing ATP were also told it could not cure them if I remember right.

    Therapists probably also favored CBT and GET over ATP.
     
  6. Adrian

    Adrian Administrator

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    At least they didn't use the expert Dr James Thompson who they used to comment on Smile He was also organizing eugenics conferences.
     
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  7. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Interesting to see that Clare Ogden of AfME co-signed that letter in Times. :thumbup:
     
  8. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Can you clarify whether it's in the Times paper edition or on-line or both?
     
  9. Skycloud

    Skycloud Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  10. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yep. Therapies that brainwash you into feeling much more positive about 'improvement' of your physical illness, will not surprisingly cause you to report that bias into your questionnaire answers. All it shows is they didn't include such brainwashing into APT.
     
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  11. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Does give some insights into the circular logic that seems to be a BPS phsychologist's ME rationale:
    • The underlying illness no longer exists. The only remaining problem is flawed thinking by the PwME. We know this, we just need to prove it.
    • We need to change the way they think, in which case they will be cured of their thinking illness.
    • Apply therapies designed to change they way they think.
    • How do we check if they have changed the way they think? Ask them questions to see what they are thinking.
    • If they are thinking more positively, then because they have a thinking illness, they must have improved!
    • What's that ... it's a physical illness? No, don't be so stupid! We just proved to you it's because of bad thinking!
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  12. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Code:
    https://twitter.com/mayadusenbery/status/976910927449620480
     
  13. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thank you! BSP is an acronym familiar to me for many years and I keep typing it by mistake ... British Standard Pipe threads :). Edited my post.
     
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  14. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This is starting to get embarrassing, Henrik Vogt
     
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  15. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    No not embarrassing, just pathetically tragic.
     
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  16. sea

    sea Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Sorry I haven’t been able to read all and keep up so this may have been discussed already

    From Chris Ponting’s comment:
    “This reanalysis was required in part because the trial group had revised their analysis from the plan published in their protocol.”

    From PACE authors’ reply:
    “They report different results from the original trial. However this is not surprising as their analyses used only part of the trial dataset and followed a preliminary PACE analysis plan, rather than the final approved and published one.”

    I’ve forgotten the time line of the original protocol. Can they honestly claim the original protocol was a preliminary one as opposed to an approved and published one or this this another blatent lie?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
  17. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Seems deeply shifty to present the trials protocol, published in BMC Neurology once the trial was already underway, as merely the "preliminary PACE analysis plan".

    I think you're right to pull that out as an extraordinary claim that we should draw attention to.
     
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  18. Carolyn Wilshire

    Carolyn Wilshire Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes, this is indeed a falsehood. The protocol was indeed published. I'm not interested in who approved it and who didn't (that's an internal matter for the researchers), but from the point of view of science, publishing a protocol, putting your names to it, and calling it a "protocol" (which is what they did) constitutes a binding promise. That promise should be adhered to unless there are special reasons for not doing so - for example, your analysis of blood samples could not be completed because the lab burned down.

    It was not a preliminary analysis plan. in fact, they were very late in publishing it, and concerns were raised about that at the time. They really should have released the protocol before they started to collect data.
     
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  19. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I was reminded of a previous planning exercise:

    SNOUT
    Doth the moon shine that night we play our play?

    BOTTOM
    A calendar, a calendar! Look in the almanac. Find out moonshine, find out moonshine!

    QUINCE
    (takes out a book) Yes, it doth shine that night.

    20 BOTTOM
    Why then, may you leave a casement of the great chamber window where we play open, and the moon may shine in at the casement.

    QUINCE
    Ay. Or else one must come in with a bush of thorns and a lantern, and say he comes to disfigure, or to present, the person of Moonshine. Then, there is another thing: we must have a wall in the great chamber. For Pyramus and Thisbe, says the story, did talk through the chink of a wall.

    SNOUT
    You can never bring in a wall. What say you, Bottom?

    BOTTOM
    Some man or other must present Wall. And let him have some plaster, or some loam, or some roughcast about him to signify wall. And let him hold his fingers thus, and through that cranny shall Pyramus and Thisbe whisper.

    QUINCE
    If that may be then all is well. Come, sit down, every mother’s son, and rehearse your parts.—Pyramus, you begin. When you have spoken your speech, enter into that brake.—And so everyone according to his cue.
     
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  20. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Deeply shifty seems a tad euphemistic?
    And yes, I think I may need to jot this down in my notebook.
     

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