Publication of the NICE ME/CFS guideline after the pause (comment starting from the announcement of 20 October 2021)

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How likely is publication of this document going to affect GPs?

Like do they get a weekly email of NICE updates or will they not be informed at all and only know there is a change if they go look it up themselves?

My question is how will an average GP learn of this change?
 
How likely is publication of this document going to affect GPs?

Like do they get a weekly email of NICE updates or will they not be informed at all and only know there is a change if they go look it up themselves?

My question is how will an average GP learn of this change?

NICE provide monthly primary care updates: https://www.nice.org.uk/news/nice-newsletters-and-alerts

The roundtable meeting was mentioned in the September update.

I think it's the GPs' responsibility to stay on top of guidance updates.
 
I think it's the GPs' responsibility to stay on top of guidance updates.

They'll also consult the CKS (Clinical Knowledge Summaries).

The most likely place they'll end up is here: https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/tiredness-fatigue-in-adults/

Hmmm. NICE really need to do something about that one.

I'm going to keep an eye on that - because if that doesn't automatically update when they release the new ME/CFS guidance, they need to be told about it.
 
How likely is publication of this document going to affect GPs?

Like do they get a weekly email of NICE updates or will they not be informed at all and only know there is a change if they go look it up themselves?

My question is how will an average GP learn of this change?
 
The rehabilitationists and royal colleges were just pawns sent by the PACE group, weren't they? They came across as not really having domain knowledge.


I don't think it is as simple as that. The rehabilitationists have a significant interest of their own in this. They may not have been very aware of the ME debate until this year but they got interested in the spring after seeing the draft guidelines.

My impression is that they realise that they have no further arguments to press and unlike the PACE people are unlikely to see much point in making noise now. Alistair Miller seems to be somewhere in between.

Posts replying about Alastair Miller have been moved to this thread
 
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I don't think it is as simple as that. The rehabilitationists have a significant interest of their own in this. They may not have been very aware of the ME debate until this year but they got interested in the spring after seeing the draft guidelines.

My impression is that they realise that they have no further arguments to press and unlike the PACE people are unlikely to see much point in making noise now. Alistair Miller seems to be somewhere in between.
I suspect the fact that the rehab people have jumped in with both feet to be at the forefront of Long Covid rehab may be influential in their recent surge in interest in ME/CFS. In good and bad ways, with their mindset of physical exercise as a key part of rehab, contradicted by input from both LC and ME patients telling them it's making them sicker.
 
Presumably the Guidance Executive at NICE are meeting today, as they seem to usually meet on Tuesdays, so presumably we will hear tomorrow their timescale for publishing the new guidelines if they follow a pattern of a next day online announcement.

We don’t know if the proposed ‘clarification’ will be in the form of amendments to the guidelines itself or in supplementary material. If the former, who would need to agree this, would the guidelines committee need to be involved?

I am also assuming publishing will involve advanced embargoed access to the new guidelines and associated material for steak holders and with a press release for the media, a minimum of several days in advance of formal publication.

(Note. Pulse in one of their articles referred to the new guidelines already being available via a freedom of information request. I have not seen this reported elsewhere, nor heard that NICE had resumed answering any of the currently overdue FOI requests. Would their be any benefit to NICE to continue delaying their answers till after publication, other than spreading the workload?)
Interestingly, have seen someone on Twitter share an email from NICE, received today, saying the exec would be meeting next week. Now, whether this is just an email text prepared based on the various releases last week and not updated to say this week, or something more accurate to say they would be meeting next week, remains to be seen. But, again, NICE seem to be struggling with consistency of messaging. I do t envy their comms team, dealing with this, but, they are presumably an experienced comms function.
 
...(Note. Pulse in one of their articles referred to the new guidelines already being available via a freedom of information request. I have not seen this reported elsewhere, nor heard that NICE had resumed answering any of the currently overdue FOI requests. Would their be any benefit to NICE to continue delaying their answers till after publication, other than spreading the workload?)


I think Pulse has got that wrong (about the guideline having already been released via an FOI).

NICE has not resumed fulfilling overdue FOI requests. Mine is now 26 days overdue with still no response to two follow up requests for an ETA for fulfilment. Several others that are also long overdue have not received revised ETAs, either. NICE FOI office has left them all hanging.
 
I think Pulse has got that wrong (about the guideline having already been released via an FOI).

NICE has not resumed fulfilling overdue FOI requests. Mine is now 26 days overdue with still no response to two follow up requests for an ETA for fulfilment. Several others that are also long overdue have not received revised ETAs, either. NICE FOI office has left them all hanging.
Unless they are fulfilling direct requests faster than those through WDTK?

The stuff that came out before the RT, around the briefing to DoHSC was from a FOI request if memory serves.

[edit as wasn't quite ready with another post and got a tad mixed up on my phone]
 
We're assuming that Wessely, White, Sharpe, Chalder etc. "sent" others to the meeting but who knows perhaps they weren't able to ensure a seat for themselves at the table. They might be quite frustrated that not they, the domain experts, but rehabilitation people like Turner-Stokes (who didn't even try to defend the RCTs) held the debate.
 
He created and led the Gulf War Illness Research Unit in 1996, a joint enterprise between IoP and War Studies, with professor Christopher Dandeker and Lawry Freedman. It has just been awarded large grant to study the health and social consequences of the Iraq deployment.
He is civilian advisor to the British Army, and regularly advises MOD, DH, NATO and various US agencies on psychological aspects of military service, terrorism and psychological injury and side effects of Medical Counter Measures. (my emphasis)

Doesn't that quote in the source cited refer to Wessely?
 
I think the notion is it is used for psychological support to help patients cope with the issues of chronic illness - however, including CBT and not a general psycological support seems strange to me as it is choosing one method (and a cheap one!).

But if it is really about copeing with chronic illness maybe there should be general guidelines to reference suitable for any chronic illness.

I agree, given we are stuck with (non curative) CBT in the new guideline, what we need is to influence how that is now implemented so that it is only for psychological suppport in coping with having got this awful disease and not warped into something brainwashy focused on the disease itself. There must be something similar in place in other diseases, something with realistic limits, that is already respected to some degree and can be adopted in ME/CFS?
 
Unless they are fulfilling direct requests faster than those through WDTK?

The stuff that came out before the RT, around the briefing to DoHSC was from a FOI request if memory serves.

Yes, my understanding is that it was a direct FOI (and it does not appear to be on the WDTK site). But it hasn't been disclosed (as far as I am aware) that a copy of the embargoed August 8 guideline (or any later dated iteration) had been requested and had been provided.
 
Yes, my understanding is that it was a direct FOI (and it does not appear to be on the WDTK site). But it hasn't been disclosed (as far as I am aware) that a copy of the embargoed August 8 guideline (or any later dated iteration) had been requested and had been provided.
It does look like the more 'tricky' stuff is being delayed, based on what's in WDTK, so would be surprising if the embargoed copy had been released via FOI when it's not been released through formal channels. Could well be that the author of the article has mistaken the leaked release for that of a different route.
 
I have not been able to write a post about this, but there is generally not enough recognition that CBT for ME/CFS as practiced is actually psychological abuse. It is the opposite of learning to cope with your illness (which really needs to involve accepting being ill) which is presumably what is meant by "supportive" CBT. If this is not recognized and the differences between the approaches clearly delineated, patients will suffer. I was disappointed with the fuzziness and what I perceive to be quite a lax attitude on these points.

Is it really the case that proponents of what is actually psychological abuse can hide behind the idea that CBT is a monolith and there is no evidence to distinguish one type of practice from another? You can just do anything and call it "CBT". Where is the protection for patients?

Sorry if this has been covered.


For me that was actually the start of how I eventually rolled into looking at the roots of CBT for ME this year; I started out wanting to write an article about the clear similarities between abuse (especially coercive control and sadistic psychological abuse) and the BPS "treatment" approach and advise for/talk about for ME patients. Indeed it's an important topic to discuss.

proponents of CBT can hide behind not so much a monolith as a putty ball that can be squashed into whatever shape desired.

Not if ME patients (and anyone having the misfortune of being dragged up in the MUS net) and the people around them get a better understanding of the structure of CBT so they can discuss it concretely.

I want to elaborate on an answer I gave here to @Sly Saint (and a shorter one here to @strategist ).

There are two key things to tackle:

1) the content of the CBT itself. The general goals and structure of ME's CBT are the same as CBT for other issues, so in that way there really is no "special" ME CBT in contrast to "normal" CBT. The difference lies in exactly which beliefs and behaviour are thought to be dysfunctional and in need of correction.
As I explained here and here, those can probably be tackled with the NICE guideline: No more activity increase as a treatment -bye bye behaviour part, which means the cognitive part that is meant to keep the patient keeping up those increases despite symptoms falls away too, including "alternative explanations" to physical symptoms like calling ME or the notion that you are sick a "distortion of reality" .

2) the purposefully misleading way that patients are approached and introduced into CBT for ME that is meant to manipulate patients into accepting psychiatric therapy and have them susceptible to the therapist later influencing them into what he/she wants them to do -to keep up and increase activity in spite of symptoms/relapse-, and to accept the abuse that is meant to get them to do it.
The goal was to deliver CBT to ME patients (and everything that could be claimed as MUS), and to that end a couple of modifications were purposefully written into the CBM treatment model of neurosis (an actual comparison was made with a fear of spiders- I kid you not) to tackle two problems:

  • Patients weren't into getting psychiatrically treated for their obvious physical illness (a problem in selling the Product and claiming treatment authority and primacy)
  • Patients "beliefs and behaviour" were "influenced" by contact with the health care system (doctors were taking patient's physical symptoms serious as indicating underlying physical illness, inconvenient in general, but especially when you're in the middle of trying to convince that same patient that there is no 'there' there; also connected to the first "problem")

To solve that they made two things a part of the therapy: with a range of methods manipulate patients (and surroundings) into thinking that they and their physical illness were taken seriously as such and that their experiences were accepted, removing as much of the psychiatry core from view as possible, and give patients the feeling that they were just trying something out at first (often referred to as a majorly important part of the setup), and isolate the patient from medical health care, propagate gatekeeper roles to medical care for executing CBT therapists and GP's and persuade physicians to join in the psychiatrist's approach, both individual scale and large scale.

I think this particular problem can be handled with education, primarily of patients, but ideally also of physicians, so they know what to look out for, what the red flags are and what things a CBT therapist that claims to work supportively should agree to*. (At the moment that whole "we work together with the patient" is a flowery tablecloth over a crocodile.)
E.g. when a therapist for example says they take your symptoms seriously, the patient should ask if they also accept that they stem from physical illness. And during the CBT process it should be accepted that the patient sees physicians for their illness.

*(If the forum is interested I might do a post about it with a more elaborate discussion of all the tricks used/advised to therapists and physicians. I'm not doing so great atm, so I don't know if and how soon I can do it, but willing to see if I can manage it somewhere.)


The answer is always that CBT is tailored to the individual.

As I understand it, then yes, individual things might vary a bit, but it's all within the same framework, so that argument is invalid.
Wheter the "explanation" for an obvious relapse due to an (increase in) activity given "to explore as an alternative" is a stressful telephone call from mum, organising a move, making too much of it, performance anxiety or talking too much doesn't matter: the core issue is that the PENE/relapse as a result of the therapist-prescribed activity is denied and probably the patient's observation of it too.
(It's actually also part of the abuse mentioned earlier, as they basically work with what they get from the patient to use it against them with the same, single end goal in mind: to not have the patient attribute symptoms to activity while they do the graded programme.)
 
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