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Protocol: Persistent physical symptoms reduction intervention: a system change and evaluation (PRINCE), 2015 onwards, Chalder, Moss-Morris, et al

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic research - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by Sly Saint, Feb 1, 2019.

  1. Tom Kindlon

    Tom Kindlon Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Merged thread

    Protocol Persistent physical symptoms reduction intervention: a system change and evaluation (PRINCE) (Chalder, Moss-Morris, etc.)

    Free full text:

    https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/9/7/e025513

    https://twitter.com/user/status/1155067263093026816
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2019
    Liessa, rvallee, Andy and 3 others like this.
  2. Tom Kindlon

    Tom Kindlon Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    They were a lot more explicit this time than usual. Disappointing to see the various (non-ME) patient organisations who have given Moss-Morris and Chalder money.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
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  3. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    my bolding

    @dave30th, is this another case of misuse of the cost statistic? I can't remember if this is one you've tackled already.
     
    Liessa, Hutan, Amw66 and 11 others like this.
  4. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    Chalder AND Moss Morriss. I bow down to their combined authority and genius. Surely this must be the answer to all that ails us unhelpful believers. I shall have a word with myself and go forth and reduce my persistent symptoms
     
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  5. SallyC

    SallyC Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Brilliant spot @Trish
     
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  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think it is but they have demonstrated their ignorance by quoting £3B, which is not ~10% of £120B.
     
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  7. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    RM-M
    so that's the online CBT sorted then
    https://www.mahanatherapeutics.com/

    european operation get redirected here https://www.himssanalytics.org/europe/home

    company formed in 2018 and MM has stock options...........hmm

    a link on the mahana therapeutics home page takes you to this
    https://www.mobihealthnews.com/content/depth-defining-burgeoning-field-digital-therapeutics
    scary
     
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  8. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Alternative maths.
     
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  9. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Ah, right, that would be no collusion then.
     
  10. Tom Kindlon

    Tom Kindlon Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The review history is here:
    https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/9/7/e025513.reviewer-comments

    These were the reviewers:

    Mark A Lumley, Ph.D. Distinguished Professor
    Department of Psychology Wayne State University Detroit, Michigan USA

    H.E. van der Horst, MD, PhD
    Amsterdam University Medical Centers, VUmc, Department of general practice and elderly care medicine The Netherlands.

    Keith Geraghty
    Centre for Primary Care Division of Population Health, Health Services Research and Primary Care Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health University of Manchester
     
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  11. Tom Kindlon

    Tom Kindlon Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    An earlier version of the paper had much fewer conflicts of interest declared. Keith Geraghty challenged them on this:

     
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  12. ME/CFS Skeptic

    ME/CFS Skeptic Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    They responded:
     
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  13. ME/CFS Skeptic

    ME/CFS Skeptic Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Geraghty wrote:
    I was confused by that as well, and don't quite get why they call it a feasibility study when it seems like a full intervention study to test efficacy.
     
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  14. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    'Feasibility study' is a trick name used to get round ethical approval it seems. There are academics working on it as a methodology. It is an admission of gerrymandering, nothing else.
     
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  15. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Presumably suggesting that having ME/CFS was a conflict of interest?
    Below the belt and missed.
     
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  16. feeb

    feeb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Oh, I'm sure they expected or wanted him to update his COI statement to something like, "hello yes I am delusional and I'm only reviewing this paper to feed my obvious psychosis"
     
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  17. Adrian

    Adrian Administrator Staff Member

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    I thought this was a shocking comment

    What they are basically admitting to is very late publication (and possibly design) of the protocol duing the collection of follow up data but making it seem like it was submitted prior to the trial starting. They claim that external reviews looked at it prior to the grant but this won't cover any protocol changes made subsequently.
     
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  18. Adrian

    Adrian Administrator Staff Member

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    I assume they will have an ethics sub committee (of 2) turn it into a full trial and merge the results in together or is this something that is only done in Bristol?
     
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  19. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My memory is that it has caught on elsewhere!
     
  20. ME/CFS Skeptic

    ME/CFS Skeptic Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    A feasibilectiveness study.
     
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