Paul Garner on Long Covid and ME/CFS - BMJ articles and other media.

"I write this to my fellow covid-19 long haulers whose tissues have healed. I have recovered. I did this by listening to people that have recovered from CFS/ME, not people that are still unwell; and by understanding that our unconscious normal thoughts and feelings influence the symptoms we experience".

His downplaying and clueless account of ME is seriously maddening. We are not 'still unwell'.
 
How has it helped them exactly? Im not gonna pretend im not angry just so they wont fabricate a false death threat claim. I do a shit load of advocacy, i reserve my right to have a heated tone without personal insults.

The Kelland pieces had significant influence, but well before that just the tone of some criticism encourages other academics to be 'loyal' to their colleagues, want to avoid adding to their burden, etc. They also mean that any criticism that is unfair and unreasonable is viewed as part of a wider problem. There are so many ways it's counter-productive. These sorts of things shouldn't really matter, but they do.
 
The Kelland pieces had significant influence, but well before that just the tone of some criticism encourages other academics to be 'loyal' to their colleagues, want to avoid adding to their burden, etc. They also mean that any criticism that is unfair and unreasonable is viewed as part of a wider problem. There are so many ways it's counter-productive. These sorts of things shouldn't really matter, but they do.

Well i disagree, i think reacting platonic when someone spits on u is counterproductive when no one is watching
 
If you look at the charts for the Dubbo studies, most people recover over time. The odds were always in Paul Garner's favour - he just needed to wait it out.

I think there is a real problem here in that where there is a chance of recovery (such as with post viral fatigue or early ME if you prefer that label) then it is easy to credit what ever was tried with the recovery. Its quite natural to do. But this is why proper science and trials are needed to remove easy to make correlations. I sometimes think it is worse in that I wonder if people start trying things as they start to feel better and credit what they try.
 
He has made it clear that he has no clue about what ought to be the basic requirements for being Director of the Centre for Evidence Synthesis.

Apart from anything his analysis of the situation following a tip off by the Lightning people is naive to the point of absurdity. How does he know this is how it works - simple really, because that is what he always believed anyway it seems.

There are bigger fish to fry. Best to let Dr Garner enjoy his recovery and otherwise forget about him.

Doesn't it say alot about the standards of academics who work on 'evidence' in the medical field. Surely they must understand the basics about bias?
 
The Kelland pieces had significant influence, but well before that just the tone of some criticism encourages other academics to be 'loyal' to their colleagues, want to avoid adding to their burden, etc. They also mean that any criticism that is unfair and unreasonable is viewed as part of a wider problem. There are so many ways it's counter-productive. These sorts of things shouldn't really matter, but they do.

Other academics should worry when they see the standard of reasoning that puts anecdote above the need for evidence. As someone who works in a different area I know people who get upset by bad research (some people can become standard jokes like the person who proposed music based cryptography). I don't understand how other academics can support such poor thinking.
 
I think we should have a push for good scientific standards rather then using anecdote to push treatments. Especially from those with 'science labels'.

Absolutely. And we want to avoid doing things that might make that harder to achieve.

I don't understand how other academics can support such poor thinking.

I can't claim to understand what we've seen, but here we are. We have to try to move forward from where we are.
 
We've already seen how heated comments from patients on social media have helped the PACE trial researchers get away with unacceptable behaviour. To me, that seems something to try to avoid repeating.
(This is me speaking personally, not as a moderator.)

While I appreciate temperate responses are almost always the best strategy, I think we have to acknowledge the great harm Paul Garner has done with his recent statements. He has been educated in science, and holds positions where he has the capacity to influence the treatment of many people. That he ignores the evidence around recovery curves from post-viral syndromes and instead turns to pseudoscience to attribute his recovery to moral fortitude astounds me. (That someone qualified in infectious diseases would think it was appropriate to head off on a long trip during the middle of a world pandemic, and put himself in the position of contracting dengue fever at a time when medical resources have many better uses also astounds me.)

I think wanting to express our anger in some way* is quite a reasonable reaction (threats of violence and the like aside). Those who use our reactions to Garner's statements against us to further their own goals should be ashamed of their lack of empathy.

* The hedge in my garden has just been cut down to size in a fairly aggressive way.
 
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I send my best withes to Paul Garner, with the hope he maintains his recovery over time, and that he will not spontaneously relapse down the road, or having a second hit that sends him back to the ME pool.

i take offence by the comment he made in regards to not having psychological problems which results in the maintenance of ME. It is also unfortunate that he is in a position of power, and because of that he was given a bullhorn at BMJ, to share with the entire medical community, including physicians who take care of COVID patients. The harm that he is doing will without doubt cause further trauma to a community of patients who will be told they are not trying hard enough, and re-traumatizing a whole community of ME patients.
 
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(This is me speaking personally, not as a moderator.)

While I appreciate temperate responses are almost always the best strategy, I think we have to acknowledge the great harm Paul Garner has done with his recent statements. He has been educated in science, and holds positions where he has the capacity to influence the treatment of many people. That he ignores the evidence around recovery curves from post-viral syndromes and instead turns to pseudoscience to attribute his recovery to moral fortitude astounds me. (That someone qualified in infectious diseases would think it was appropriate to head off on a long trip during the middle of a world pandemic, and put himself in the position of contracting dengue fever at a time when medical resources have many better uses also astounds me.)

I think wanting to express our anger in some way* is quite a reasonable reaction (threats of violence and the like aside). Those who use our reactions to Garner's statements against us to further their own goals should be ashamed of their lack of empathy.

* The hedge in my garden has just been cut down to size in a fairly aggressive way.

I'm conflicted over how anecdotes should be treated, and I worry that being too critical of people who use their own anecdotes to push a particular narrative can be counter-productive. I'm really unsure of my position there. I certainly don't like making reference to anecdotes, and would avoid speaking of my own personal experiences when discussing ME/CFS.

Garner's anecdote driven blog is a particularly weird one given his position and that it's published at the BMJ. But haven;t his other blogs often been like this? Here he intermingles his story with medical claims lacking any sort of reference ("I learnt that our primitive and unconscious defence mechanisms against injury and infection in the brain and other parts of the body sometimes get disturbed, giving false fatigue alarms. A vicious cycle is set up, of dysfunctional autonomic responses being stimulated by our subconscious. These neural tracks become established like tyre tracks in mud. I learnt that I could change the symptoms I was experiencing with my brain, by retraining the bodily reactions with my conscious thoughts, feelings, and behaviour."). I understand why people see it as calculated to promote Recovery Norge style PR, but I feel much less critical of Garner than someone like Vogt. Garner has been through a really strange experience that he will not have had time to properly digest yet. I expect that his colleagues will see any anger expressed by patients as more reason to view the concerns of ME/CFS patients dismissively rather than take them any more seriously.

I think that on this issue it's worth emphasising that the only reason anecdotes, and which anecdotes are selected to be amplified, can be such an important issue around ME/CFS is because of other more important problems.
 
1. He is now brainwashed by Lightning process and everything he says about symptoms is irrellevant

3. He might come down with a permanent worsening after ignoring symptoms for a long while. I did exactly the same without Lightning Process, but I was never scared about getting symptoms either
It will be interesting to see if objective evidence shows up of his recovery. As was highlighted again over the weekend with a Swedish or Norwegian newspaper article, you are trained to lie after LP. I know less about the other brain training courses but the same doubt may apply to people who have done them.
 
Just read the BMJ blog. Easily the most poisonous thing I have ever read on me/cfs, at least in many years.

A seemingly reputable reference presenting unscientific reasoning, antecdotal evidence, wish-washy makeup pathology, a dig at behavior of me/cfs patients. Certainty in what happened. Total disregard for post-viral recovery,and the usual course of post-viral fatigue.

In fact he lumps the two together as "...post viral fatigue syndrome (CFS/ME) years ago..."

Misleading use of references (except to back-up what happened, what program was used, or the typical course of post-viral fatigue).

I did this by listening to people that have recovered from CFS/ME, not people that are still unwell

Right, because they might not have recovered from the same things... so let's ignore them?!

This is a invitation to fill-in-the gaps me/cfs dismissal and disgust from any medical professional that wants a reference that seems reliable but isn't. And how many people will know the difference between a proper body of research and the opinion of a reputable doctor?

I mean he literaly just exercised out of it. No one has ever tried that before!
 
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An old quote of Esther12's. It seems that with ME/CFS, it's hard to be too cynical.
Being as cynical as possible:

With examples of post-viral fatigue it seems that most go on to eventually recover, while some do not. A potentially disadvantage (for us) of people adopting a label like PVFS/ME/CFS early on is that we could then be flooded with anecdotal reports about how doing [whatever they were doing at the time] led to recovery from PVFS/ME/CFS.

Hopefully those suffering long lasting symptoms from COVID-19 will be particularly likely to go on to recover, but given the problems surrounding PVFS/ME/CFS research, I can see that almost any outcome could end up being viewed in a way that causes problems for other PVFS/ME/CFS patients. We know that some less than impressive people with a history of spin are now getting funding for researching this area.

It occurs to me that, if you were in charge of protecting the BPS edifice, 'turning' Paul Garner, with his potential influence on Cochrane reports, would bring about a lot of benefit for a relatively small amount of effort. It probably isn't hard, when someone is beginning to recover, to fill someone's head with the idea that ME/CFS is due to moral weakness, but they are superior to those others who aren't getting better.

an early Garner blog said:
I am reading materials about pacing and CFS/ME and listening to the CFS/ME community. I am taken aback that doctors have been so dismissive of what these patients have been saying for so long. I talk to my sister. Her personal experience of ME really helps, and she coaches with practical management of chronic fatigue.
I suspect I am not as disappointed with Paul Garner as some.
 
I imagine Charles Shepherd and others are feeling as though they have helped someone across the road, only to have the person turn around and throw them under the oncoming bus.

I don't think we even need to resort to 'he didn't have what I have' (as in PVFS and ME/CFS).

I meet Paul Garner's anecdote with mine. I and my two children became sick after a virus, one was able to recover over two years, with no special treatment. Seven years on, my son and I have not. As lovely as my daughter is, it is not possible to attribute her recovery (versus the failure of my son and I to) to some superior determination or outlook on life or particular approach to rest and exercise. It just happened, with time.

If you look at the charts for the Dubbo studies, most people recover over time. The odds were always in Paul Garner's favour - he just needed to wait it out.

The difference is what the person does with his/her anecdotal experience, the reach of that anecdote and the framing of it.
 
A response via BMJ Disqus and Facebook:



Dear Professor Garner,


It is indeed joyous news that you are on the mend. I wish you and all longhaulers well.


There are two very important caveats to be made to avoid harm to others, all factors detailed within the recent draft NICE ME/CFS guideline and/or reviewed by the committee. This includes sufficient evidence of harm to result in withdrawal of both exercise therapy and cognitive approaches to "encouraging" activity. Similar warnings have been put in place for post-covid patients by NICE.


The literature does suggest that early and sustained rest, when initial post viral fatigue strikes, results in higher probability of remission. It does sound as if you benefited from this good advice, which is as good as it gets in terms of evidence based counsel. Conversely, empirical probabilities of remission do collapse as time goes on. It is critical to note that patients in recent decades have rarely benefitted from the advice that you benefited from. There are repeated indications in the literature that patients instead normally encounter entirely the opposite advice to that which you received, within a contra scientific, long normalised, medical narrative.


It is also possible that you do not/would not have met the objective and required criteria of ME/CFS' cardinal symptom, Post Exertional Malaise. This is either because the advice to rest mitigated the progression of post viral complication or because you would never have developed ME/CFS itself. Objectively measuring Post Exertional Malaise in ME/CFS (using a two day cardio pulmonary exercise test in controlled research conditions) captures a reduction of anaerobic threshold, essentially a reduction in fitness that cannot be psychologically induced, either way, and which does not reflect your experience. Such PEM, whether CPET induced or not, is also associated with other adverse findings in the literature, from blood pathogen spikes and lactate accumulation across the body and brain, to peculiar glycolysis abnormalities, which all contextualise such CPET findings. Specifically, this is the quantified adverse reaction to exertion that you are not experiencing. Put otherwise, a person without ME/CFS will not respond physiologically in these negative ways to exercise.


While the science is incomplete, and wildly underfunded, the repeated corroboration of related findings does lead to a consistent menu of questions and research avenues. Which are apparently not compatible with your account being one of ME/CFS.


It is important to place perceived recovery stories in conservative contexts - a consideration that is rarely the case, particularly in the media. Moreover, the literature documenting medical attitudes to and knowledge of ME/CFS essentially codifies a narrative diet of misinformation and gaslighting, which runs entirely contrary to the science known outwith medical norms. Not contextualizing your story fully risks fuelling the harm done to patients yet further. Which I am sure is not your intention, but is habitually the case in the medical profession, even when good will exists.


With best wishes for your ongoing good health,


Dr. Richard Ramyar.
 
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I had shared his previous BMJ blogs on my Facebook which open to a small number of friends and family. It really won’t make any difference but I really didn’t feel comfortable having his articles on my timeline so I’ve gone back and deleted those posts.

I hope he is doing as well as he says.

In the light of the advantages he had from the start of his post viral experience in terms of support from the ME Community and good information from people like Charles Shepherd given the comments he has made I feel no vestige of solidarity with Garner. As it would appear he has no solidarity with people with ME
 
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It will be interesting to see if objective evidence shows up of his recovery. As was highlighted again over the weekend with a Swedish or Norwegian newspaper article, you are trained to lie after LP. I know less about the other brain training courses but the same doubt may apply to people who have done them.

Spot on. Patients are taught that the LP doesn't work unless you tell everyone you have recovered (even if you haven't).

The whole article sounds like he has fallen for this scam hook, line and sinker. In fact, it reads as though it's written by someone who has been indoctrinated into a cult.
 
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