NHS England web pages on ME/CFS

The NHS page is awful, particularly the treatment of PEM. Is there hope of improving it? It's misleading enough to warrant being changed.
The mention and description of PEM is wrong and inadequate and does not even occur up top where the symptoms are. You have to scroll through. It should be brought into consistency with the new guideline.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs/

Edit: are they allowed to use a different symptom list to that stated in the guideline?? I mean ? Have they just not bothered to change it properly yet or is this what they are planning on sticking with?
 
Last edited:
"As the symptoms of ME/CFS are similar to those of many common illnesses that usually get better on their own, a diagnosis of ME/CFS may be considered if you do not get better as quickly as expected." >>> ???

The NHS page describes an illness that has nothing to do with what is in the guideline published today. Why is post-exertional malaise not in the main list of symptoms at all? That is all that some people will look at.

NHS website:
"Common symptoms of ME/CFS include

  • feeling extremely tired all the time – you may find it very hard to do daily activities
  • still feeling tired after resting or sleeping
  • taking a long time to recover after physical activity
  • problems sleeping, such as waking up often during the night
  • problems with thinking, memory and concentration
Some people with ME/CFS may also have other symptoms, including:


This is listed under "extreme tiredness (fatigue)" on the second page (my bolding):

"Exercising usually makes the symptoms worse. Sometimes the effect is delayed and you'll feel very tired a few hours after you've exercised, or even the next day."

There is an excessive focus on "tiredness" and it does not mirror the guideline published today. The phrasing is ridiculous and misleading. Who was responsible for drafting this?
 
"As the symptoms of ME/CFS are similar to those of many common illnesses that usually get better on their own, a diagnosis of ME/CFS may be considered if you do not get better as quickly as expected." >>> ???

The NHS page describes an illness that has nothing to do with what is in the guideline published today. Why is post-exertional malaise not in the main list of symptoms at all? That is all that some people will look at.

NHS website:
"Common symptoms of ME/CFS include

  • feeling extremely tired all the time – you may find it very hard to do daily activities
  • still feeling tired after resting or sleeping
  • taking a long time to recover after physical activity
  • problems sleeping, such as waking up often during the night
  • problems with thinking, memory and concentration
Some people with ME/CFS may also have other symptoms, including:


This is listed under "extreme tiredness (fatigue)" on the second page (my bolding):

"Exercising usually makes the symptoms worse. Sometimes the effect is delayed and you'll feel very tired a few hours after you've exercised, or even the next day."

There is an excessive focus on "tiredness" and it does not mirror the guideline published today. The phrasing is ridiculous and misleading. Who was responsible for drafting this?

Dr Shepherd posted this on the MEA Facebook page fairly recently:

NHS website updates its information on ME/CFS to link in with the new guideline

That was quick!

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs/

Not happy with the CBT wording and the link

This needs to explain that CBT is no longer recommended as a way of treating the underlying disease process in ME/CFS

But it may be help some people to cope with the physchological distress that may accompany ME/CFS

Dr Charles Shepherd - MEA
 
The CBT wording on the NHS website is bad (just terrible, v misleading), but on balance there are other issues with it that are even worse such as the PEM issue and symptom descriptions. Sensory issues should be in the list; it is only in the severity descriptions.

The symptom list and description of the illness should mirror the NICE document. I really hope this is not intended to be the final "updated" version. At least the previous version had a warning on it that it was being updated!

Edit: incidentally, there seems to be a shift to "extreme tiredness" from "fatigue" - I really hope there can be a roughly accurate description of this illness I've had for so many years up there sometime soon. :/ Dear NHS, please try again. :(
 
Last edited:
On the NICE guideline page, https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng206/chapter/Recommendations ...

Why are these two logos displayed at the end:

View attachment 15508
Why does the RCP warrant a plug on the NICE guideline page?

And why does NICE seem to be showing an accreditation for ... itself?

I'm sure there are sensible reasons, but I'd like to understand what they are.



https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng203

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng9

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng17

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg142

and others all have the NICE accredited logo.

Some also have the NHS logo.


https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng193

also has the NICE accredited logo, and also the RCP logo.

The presence of the RCP logo might be seen as endorsement. But they have put their name to today's joint statement.
 
Last edited:
On the NHS webpage with information on ME/CFS for the public:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs/

well it's been updated
from first view not a lot has changed.
the name yes but
"Myalgic encephalomyelitis, also called chronic fatigue syndrome or ME/CFS, is a long-term condition with a wide range of symptoms. The most common symptom is extreme tiredness."

There is an excessive focus on "tiredness" and it does not mirror the guideline published today. The phrasing is ridiculous and misleading. Who was responsible for drafting this?

Re the repeated use of the word 'tiredness':
We had the same difficulty here when a good online guide for doctors we had made was translated into an update of the online public guidance. The writers were convinced that 'fatigue' was too much of an obscure medical term for the common man and woman to deal with, with 'tiredness' being the translation that people would understand. Eventually they accepted 'fatigue', along with the explanation that it is different to the fatigue experienced 'after a strenuous day's work' - ( 'strenuous' apparently being an easy word).

Maybe some of the wording would be useful to the NHS writers or others. Here's a link:
https://www.healthinfo.org.nz/index.htm?Chronic-fatigue-syndrome-CFS.htm

ME/CFS (myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome) is a debilitating, long-term illness that affects multiple systems of the body. In New Zealand, there are an estimated 16,000 to 20,000 people with ME/CFS. It can affect people of all ages, ethnic and socio-economic groups, although women are more likely than men to be diagnosed with it.

Typically ME/CFS starts after an infection, such as glandular fever or influenza, but it may also begin gradually. We don't yet understand what causes ME/CFS, but research is starting to suggest that people with ME/CFS may have changes at a cellular level. There is some evidence that the illness may run in families.

If you have ME/CFS you become much less able to do things that used to be normal for you. You can have flu-like symptoms, pain, disturbed sleep and trouble concentrating. Your symptoms get worse after physical or mental exertion, and when you stand or sit upright.

ME/CFS can be difficult to diagnose, and other conditions have to be ruled out before a diagnosis is made. There is no specific test to diagnose ME/CFS.

Currently there is no proven treatment or cure for this condition. But there are self-care steps you can take to help you manage the symptoms of ME/CFS and improve your quality of life.

Symptoms of ME/CFS
People with ME/CFS experience overwhelming physical and mental fatigue. This is different to the fatigue that well people experience after strenuous exercise or a day's work. ME/CFS-associated fatigue can be disabling and does not readily get better with rest.

Other symptoms include:

  • Much less ability to do activities that were normal before the illness.
  • Post-exertional malaise (PEM). This is when your symptoms get worse after doing some physical or mental activity that wouldn't have caused a problem before you got ill. It is often delayed, happening 12 to 24 hours after the activity.
  • Sleep disturbance. People with ME/CFS usually don't feel rested even after a full night's sleep.You might sleep much longer than is normal, or have trouble falling and staying asleep.
  • Problems concentrating.Thinking quickly and concentrating becomes very hard, especially when you are experiencing PEM. This is often called brain fog.
  • Orthostatic intolerance. This is when symptoms get worse when standing or sitting upright. It includes feeling weak, dizzy, nauseous (sick), and having blurred vision and numbness or pins and needles in your hands.
  • Pain. This is common and can include muscle and joint pain, headaches, nerve pain, and frequent sore throats. Some people may also get fibromyalgia.
Some people also report other symptoms such as tender lymph nodes, nausea (feeling sick), loss of appetite, irritable bowel syndrome, bloating, diarrhoea, irregular heartbeat, chills and night sweats, increased sensitivity to foods, alcohol or medication, and sensitivity to chemicals, odours, light and noise.

The severity of your symptoms can vary from day to day, or even within a day. Symptoms can also vary from person to person:

  • Mild – you can move about and can care for yourself. You can do light housework, but it's hard. You may be well enough to work or attend school or study, if you have plenty of help with other aspects of your life.
  • Moderate – you're restricted in most activities of daily living. You've probably stopped work or education.
  • Severe – you probably can't do very much for yourself, spend most of your time in bed and may depend on a wheelchair. You're also likely to have severe problems thinking, remembering or concentrating, and be sensitive to light and noise.
Outlook for ME/CFS
There is no good information available yet about recovery from ME/CFS.

Many people improve over the first two years. Children and young people seem to be more likely to recover fully.

After two years, rates of recovery are low but support and careful management can often increase quality of life. Most people's symptoms fluctuate in severity over time, but a minority do get progressively worse.
 
Last edited:
ME Association on Facebook

Code:
https://www.facebook.com/meassociation/posts/4522166264507663


ME Association

NHS website updates its information on ME/CFS to link in with the new guideline
That was quick!
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs/
Not happy with the CBT wording and the link
This needs to explain that CBT is no longer recommended as a way of treating the underlying disease process in ME/CFS
But it may be help some people to cope with the physchological distress that may accompany ME/CFS
Dr Charles Shepherd - MEA

(...)

ME Association
Thanks for all these very helpful comments. Yes - this NHS information needs much more than a quick NICE update. It's on a very long list of 'to do' following publication of the new guideline... CS
 
well it's been updated

from first view not a lot has changed.
the name yes but
"Myalgic encephalomyelitis, also called chronic fatigue syndrome or ME/CFS, is a long-term condition with a wide range of symptoms. The most common symptom is extreme tiredness."




https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs/

not impressed
eta:
it gets worse
how difficult would it be to put this on
"Myalgic encephalomyelitis, also called chronic fatigue syndrome or ME/CFS, is a long-term condition with a wide range of symptoms. The defining symptom is post-exertional malaise."

"Post-exertional malaise (PEM) is the worsening of symptoms following even minor physical or mental exertion, with symptoms typically worsening 12 to 48 hours after activity and lasting for days or even weeks. PEM can be mitigated by activity management (pacing)."

(the second sentence taken from the CDC website).

eta: even NHS scotlands (pre ne NICE GL) is better
"
Myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME) or chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a long term condition that causes persistent fatigue (exhaustion) that doesn't go away with sleep or rest and affects everyday life. It most commonly affects the nervous and immune systems. Sometimes it is diagnosed as post viral fatigue syndrome (PVFS).

People with ME-CFS experience severe fatigue associated with post-exertional malaise (PEM). This is when the body is not able to recover after using even small amounts of energy, leading to a flare up in symptoms. This fatigue feels very different to ordinary tiredness and may take a day or two to kick in after physical, mental or emotional exertion."
https://www.nhsinform.scot/illnesse...-and-spinal-cord/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs
 
I may have lost my place in this or not seen the link but the NHS have changed their input on NHS and CBT under the heading of treating and goes against NICE with and looks very much like GET is on there too Myalgic encephalomyelitis or chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) - NHS (www.nhs.uk)
Looks like it's been written by someone who couldn't be bothered to read through all the new guideline but has just cherry picked parts of it and cut and pasted them into the old version. This is a very damaging approach to have taken.
 
Moved post

Well NHS have not hung about,,,,
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs/
Page last reviewed: 29 October 2021
Next review due: 29 October 2024

Treating ME/CFS
Treatment for ME/CFS aims to relieve the symptoms. Your treatment will depend on how the condition is affecting you

While there is currently no cure for ME/CFS, there are treatments that may help you manage the condition.

Treatments include:
  • cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT)
  • energy management – where you're given advice about how to make best use of the energy you have without making your symptoms worse
  • medicine to control symptoms such as pain and sleeping problems
Most people with ME/CFS will improve over time, especially with treatment, although some people do not make a full recovery.

It's also likely there will be periods when your symptoms get better or worse.

Children and young people with ME/CFS are more likely to recover fully.

Find out more about treatments for ME/CFS
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Looks like it's been written by someone who couldn't be bothered to read through all the new guideline but has just cherry picked parts of it and cut and pasted them into the old version. This is a very damaging approach to have taken.

Is there any hope of getting the whole thing re-written and actually based on the new guideline? The website is extraordinarily bad.
 
Looks like it's been written by someone who couldn't be bothered to read through all the new guideline but has just cherry picked parts of it and cut and pasted them into the old version. This is a very damaging approach to have taken.

I would say thins is intentional. They will now start their changing the guidelines through the channels afforded to them by NICE. That is why Leng like Baker is stepping down or were they pushed. I would also not be surprised if Carol Black was given the position of NICE
 
Needs to be a court challenge I would hope?

I think this is more of a case of the charities and other parties/organisations making a group effort. Although some of the phrasing seems deliberate, much of this is likely down to incompetence and laziness and could be changed. I think it's fairly likely this could be achieved.

But starting again entirely? Not so sure. I am not sure how it works and so I have no idea. I hope there is a big effort on this. The website is sadly the first port of call for many, and is likely viewed as authoritative or trustworthy by many due to its association with the NHS. Most people trust and feel very positive about the "NHS" and their feelings about it confer to the materials.
 
I may have lost my place in this or not seen the link but the NHS have changed their input on NHS and CBT under the heading of treating and goes against NICE with and looks very much like GET is on there too Myalgic encephalomyelitis or chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) - NHS (www.nhs.uk)
NHS said:
exercise programmes such as graded exercise therapy (GET) are no longer recommended for everyone with ME/CFS.
This is a highly misleading skew of what the new guideline says. It amounts to an untruthful statement from NHS.
  • NICE explicitly says that GET is not to be offered to anyone with ME/CFS.
  • The NHS wording makes it sound like it is OK to offer it to some ME/CFS sufferers. Not true.
  • The NHS wording makes it sound like the new guideline does not preclude GET, but simply does not recommend it. Not true.
  • The new guideline does explicitly preclude GET, and all other treatments based the deconditioning theory.
They really need to get this right.

I've not read the rest of it.
 
Back
Top Bottom