Let's talk wheelchairs and mobility scooters

So to be fair to Wheelfreedom, I absolutely loved the Atto Sport. Super comfortable once adding the optional cushion, passed the glove and wheelybin tests, and although it tipped onto two wheels slightly when subjected to top-speed slaloms on adverse cambers, it felt reasonably stable under all normal circumstances.

Not sure that I can fold or unfold it unaided, but then the same went for other much lighter and infinitely less comfortable boot scooters - I just didn’t have the strength. And nothing that autofolds is light enough to pass the Mrs Loom carry test.

So I’ll probably go ahead and get the Atto, but am wondering: people with boot scooters, have you found that a combination of your instructions and a cabbie’s brawn is effective for mobility kit origami? Do private hire drivers tend to be relaxed about this sort of request, or does it require advance negotiation and eye-watering tips?
 
It's brilliant news that you found one you like, @Shadrach Loom—it really is life changing when you can suddenly get out and do things again. Excited for you!

Shadrach Loom said:
people with boot scooters, have you found that a combination of your instructions and a cabbie’s brawn is effective for mobility kit origami? Do private hire drivers tend to be relaxed about this sort of request, or does it require advance negotiation and eye-watering tips?
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I haven't, but my experience is from a few years ago and things might have improved. I tried private hire three times, and the drivers didn't really see it as being part of their job. To be fair, I gave up on the idea quite quickly, and I'm sure there are some brilliantly helpful ones out there too.

Maybe try asking in groups whether anyone has found a private hire driver local to you who's willing to help, and wherever feasible, always booking them? My auntie had a folding wheelchair that her husband struggled to clip together because of his hand arthritis, and they found a chap who was really good about helping older people. He took them everywhere for years.

Shadrach Loom said:
Turns out I can get to the step free tube station a mile away without exceeding 6%, which opens up some exciting potential journey options.
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Once you've got used to the scooter and become more confident, you'll probably find that stated gradient isn't something you need to worry about much. They usually base it on the worst possible weather and surface conditions, and the heaviest weight the scooter is able to carry. Often those circumstances don't apply, and it will tackle any built-up area perfectly happily. If it does ever balk at a short, steep, slippery ramp and you can walk up it, just get off, turn the speed down to minimum, and steer it up unladen.


I'm really sorry, I've just thought of another tip! :laugh: If you need to go out in the rain to an occasion requiring nice clothes, it's worth your wife buying a long plastic apron and keeping it in the scooter bag/in the car. It's hard to dismantle a wet scooter and lift it into a car or up the step of a social venue without getting your clothes dirty. When I had the boot scooter I bought a PVC butcher's apron, so that I could turn up at a restaurant or conference without looking as if I'd just been dragged through a hedge.
 
Kitty said:
It's brilliant news that you found one you like, @Shadrach Loom—it really is life changing when you can suddenly get out and do things again. Excited for you!



I haven't, but my experience is from a few years ago and things might have improved. I tried private hire three times, and the drivers didn't really see it as being part of their job. To be fair, I gave up on the idea quite quickly, and I'm sure there are some brilliantly helpful ones out there too.

Maybe try asking in groups whether anyone has found a private hire driver local to you who's willing to help, and wherever feasible, always booking them? My auntie had a folding wheelchair that her husband struggled to clip together because of his hand arthritis, and they found a chap who was really good about helping older people. He took them everywhere for years.



Once you've got used to the scooter and become more confident, you'll probably find that stated gradient isn't something you need to worry about much. They usually base it on the worst possible weather and surface conditions, and the heaviest weight the scooter is able to carry. Often those circumstances don't apply, and it will tackle any built-up area perfectly happily. If it does ever balk at a short, steep, slippery ramp and you can walk up it, just get off, turn the speed down to minimum, and steer it up unladen.


I'm really sorry, I've just thought of another tip! :laugh: If you need to go out in the rain to an occasion requiring nice clothes, it's worth your wife buying a long plastic apron and keeping it in the scooter bag/in the car. It's hard to dismantle a wet scooter and lift it into a car or up the step of a social venue without getting your clothes dirty. When I had the boot scooter I bought a PVC butcher's apron, so that I could turn up at a restaurant or conference without looking as if I'd just been dragged through a hedge.
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@Kitty your advice on all this has been fantastic, so helpful.
 
I am severe level pretty much bed bound though I do go out and walk from front door to car and out the other side to visit local family or for medical appointments

I used to go out occasionally for walks but can’t do that anymore. I also have hired mobility scooters. This is better for PEM than walking but the sitting and steering leaves me with a lot of neck and hand pain.

I am looking to see if there is a power chair with head and neck support that also reclines that would handle the very steep hills near me I don’t know the gradient number but definitely a lot higher than 6 degrees.

I know power-chairs are ridiculously expensive so even if I find something suitable could be unattainable but I don’t want to stay in bed for the rest of my life so have to start somewhere.

I also may need to start using one indoors.

I am waiting for an OT assessment and they can refer to wheelchair service who sometimes lend manual chars through NHS though not sure that would help me much. However they should be able to help me work out what type of thing would be suitable for me but I’ve been waiting a while and don’t know when this will happen.

I have visited my a disability centre before about walking aids they have an OT you can make appointments with. But it’s not that local and I am not well enough for either the journey or appointment.

Now to make a start on my education online on the subject.

Any pointers of comments around this appreciated.

Thanks
 
Ash said:
I am severe level pretty much bed bound though I do go out and walk from front door to car and out the other side to visit local family or for medical appointments

I used to go out occasionally for walks but can’t do that anymore. I also have hired mobility scooters. This is better for PEM than walking but the sitting and steering leaves me with a lot of neck and hand pain.

I am looking to see if there is a power chair with head and neck support that also reclines that would handle the very steep hills near me I don’t know the gradient number but definitely a lot higher than 6 degrees.

I know power-chairs are ridiculously expensive so even if I find something suitable could be unattainable but I don’t want to stay in bed for the rest of my life so have to start somewhere.

I also may need to start using one indoors.

I am waiting for an OT assessment and they can refer to wheelchair service who sometimes lend manual chars through NHS though not sure that would help me much. However they should be able to help me work out what type of thing would be suitable for me but I’ve been waiting a while and don’t know when this will happen.

I have visited my a disability centre before about walking aids they have an OT you can make appointments with. But it’s not that local and I am not well enough for either the journey or appointment.

Now to make a start on my education online on the subject.

Any pointers of comments around this appreciated.

Thanks
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This looks like an amazing bit of kit. 10 degrees gradient, full recline, all the head and neck support you could possibly want.

https://www.wheelfreedom.com/products/sunrise-medical-quickie-q700-m-powerchair

£7.5k, but at 8mph it should be a more than capable getaway vehicle if you chose to fund it through a crime spree, and worth a couple of days post-heist malaise.
 
Ash said:
I am looking to see if there is a power chair with head and neck support that also reclines that would handle the very steep hills near me I don’t know the gradient number but definitely a lot higher than 6 degrees.
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I've honestly never found steep hills a problem, but I'm of average body weight and I don't use lightweight wheelchairs. Unless you need a bariatric chair—in which case, take advice from the supplier—anything that does 6mph should get you up a hill as long as your battery isn't just about to die.

Try looking at what are called rehab chairs. Rehab means they can be customised to a disabled person's needs, rather than only coming with a standard set of options such as a low-back seat. These will usually offer you options like a recline or tilt-in-space function.

Recline means that only the chair back reclines and your legs stay where they are, like a car seat.

Tilt-in-space means the whole seat reclines, which you may need as someone with severe ME.

Full recline means you can lie flat—these are less easy to find than the other two types.

If you think you might want to use it in the house, a mid-wheel drive chair is often best. These literally rotate on the spot like a gun turret, so are brilliant for indoors and for travelling on buses.

I've added a link below to the chair I have at the moment, which was built for me by a one-man company near Bawtry. If anyone has £7k-odd and lives near enough to be within striking distance for adjustments, I can recommend them, as the chairs can be tweaked to the nth degree for you. Tom's wife is tetraplegic, and he started building his own chairs because the commercially produced ones are both overpriced and deeply underwhelming on anything except well-maintained pavements.

I'd never spend anything like that much on a first chair, though. Riding them uses up energy, and you might find you need a surprising amount of recovery time. The worst-case scenario is that you just find it too tiring to go out much, and it'd be awful to waste a lot of cash on something that doesn't even look nice as a piece of furniture. I could only justify it because going on nature trips and holidays is important to me, and I already know I can do it on a regular basis.

You should be able to find a new or reconditioned rehab chair that suits your needs and body proportions for much less than that sort of money. For secondhand, keep looking on eBay for a few weeks, to give you an idea of what comes up and how much people want for them. Also try secondhand dealers, whose prices can sometimes be better than eBay (unless you win an auction), and are more likely to deliver.

If you're patient enough, you may find a brilliant chair in hardly-used condition for half or less of the list price. Sadly, chairs are bought for people in the final stages of their lives, for which relatives have no use once they've passed away; teenagers grow out of chairs that can be fine for some adults; and some folk just rush into purchases that turn out to be expensive mistakes.



https://www.thepowerchaircompany.co.uk/index.php/products/power-chair-rehab
 
One thing i would love to know, is whether any of these chairs/scooters are drivable by someone standing/walking with you... like a bicycle would be. I ask because ive never investigated getting one despite hating the fact that i have to be pushed everywhere in the manual chair & i'd love the independance. Because when i crash it can come unexpectedly, & within about 5 mins i can go from able to steer & understanding how to work the controls so being so weak i cant hold my body up at all, unable to work my hands/fingers, & so cognitively impaired i just cant steer or understand what's going on, cant understand verbal instructions either.

The last time i went on one round a supermarket, which was wonderful, half way round i crashed & i became unable to work it or steer or anything, we just had to leave it in the middle of the aisle, she fetched the wheelchair from the car & with the help of a friend who was fortunately passing by they hoisted me out of the scooter, into chair & then from chair to car.

But if that had been my own scooter.... ? Could someone stand at the side & work the controls or do you have to be sitting in it?
 
JemPD said:
One thing i would love to know, is whether any of these chairs/scooters are drivable by someone standing/walking with you
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Yes, at least if it's a powerchair. They're called attendant controls, and can often be retrofitted to chairs that are currently set up to be controlled by the occupier.

I've never seen it on a scooter, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's impossible. It might simply be that scooters are typically used by people who're more physically able, so it's not usually necessary.


ETA: changed to just 'more able', as attendant controls are often used for people with cognitive or visual impairment, as well as physical difficulties. When my mum was in the early stages of dementia, she needed to use an attendant controlled chair because otherwise she was a complete menace to society!
 
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JemPD said:
The thought of being in control when i'm out is making me cry it would be so wonderful.
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It can almost be as cognitively challenging as driving a car if there are people, dogs, and children moving around unpredictably as well as the various fixed obstacles around you. I'm used to it because I've been doing it for 20 years, but the demands on someone who's severely affected shouldn't be underestimated.

Thinking about it, it would be quite difficult to control a scooter from behind. The walking person has to stand close to the vehicle, so they need space to accommodate their front leg as they stride forward. With most wheelchairs, there is space between the rear wheels to allow this. The bodies of scooters often project a little way beyond the back of the seat but without a gap between the wheels, so unless there were long handles mounted on the seat for the controller, they'd be walking into it all the time.
 
JemPD said:
Thanks Kitty, thats very interesting. The thought of being in control when i'm out is making me cry it would be so wonderful.
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.

My recently acquired power chair, which I control, does have the facility for attendant driving by moving the drive unit to the back of the wheelchair, but we have never actually tried it because I am so comfortable driving and this does bring a wonderful feeling of freedom. Gratefully, I have never lacked the energy to be in control which I was with the scooter I earlier selected, my expensive mistake.

Firstly I can sit in it comfortably resting my right arm on an armrest to manipulate the controls. I don't have to support the weight of my arms so I have never felt too weak to drive it. The seat is comfortable. There is no head support but I don't need that.
I can choose where I go.

It is very easy to unfold theoretically but its newness means it is still a bit stiff and one needs to bend to release the folding mechanism, which I find difficult, a mixture of arthritis and dysautonomia.

We have now invested in a hoist to lift it into the car hatchback with the intention of me being able to use the chair independently but so far, I haven't been able to do that. I have lost capacity this year because of reactions to the three vaccines. I don't know if I will regain that so I may still need to be accompanied which wasn't the original plan at all. Nevertheless it is making winter walks with Mr B more pleasurable and he can use the hoist instead of heaving it in manually.
 
Kitty said:
I've honestly never found steep hills a problem, but I'm of average body weight and I don't use lightweight wheelchairs. Unless you need a bariatric chair—in which case, take advice from the supplier—anything that does 6mph should get you up a hill as long as your battery isn't just about to die.

Try looking at what are called rehab chairs. Rehab means they can be customised to a disabled person's needs, rather than only coming with a standard set of options such as a low-back seat. These will usually offer you options like a recline or tilt-in-space function.

Recline means that only the chair back reclines and your legs stay where they are, like a car seat.

Tilt-in-space means the whole seat reclines, which you may need as someone with severe ME.

Full recline means you can lie flat—these are less easy to find than the other two types.

If you think you might want to use it in the house, a mid-wheel drive chair is often best. These literally rotate on the spot like a gun turret, so are brilliant for indoors and for travelling on buses.

I've added a link below to the chair I have at the moment, which was built for me by a one-man company near Bawtry. If anyone has £7k-odd and lives near enough to be within striking distance for adjustments, I can recommend them, as the chairs can be tweaked to the nth degree for you. Tom's wife is tetraplegic, and he started building his own chairs because the commercially produced ones are both overpriced and deeply underwhelming on anything except well-maintained pavements.

I'd never spend anything like that much on a first chair, though. Riding them uses up energy, and you might find you need a surprising amount of recovery time. The worst-case scenario is that you just find it too tiring to go out much, and it'd be awful to waste a lot of cash on something that doesn't even look nice as a piece of furniture. I could only justify it because going on nature trips and holidays is important to me, and I already know I can do it on a regular basis.

You should be able to find a new or reconditioned rehab chair that suits your needs and body proportions for much less than that sort of money. For secondhand, keep looking on eBay for a few weeks, to give you an idea of what comes up and how much people want for them. Also try secondhand dealers, whose prices can sometimes be better than eBay (unless you win an auction), and are more likely to deliver.

If you're patient enough, you may find a brilliant chair in hardly-used condition for half or less of the list price. Sadly, chairs are bought for people in the final stages of their lives, for which relatives have no use once they've passed away; teenagers grow out of chairs that can be fine for some adults; and some folk just rush into purchases that turn out to be expensive mistakes.



https://www.thepowerchaircompany.co.uk/index.php/products/power-chair-rehab
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Thanks such useful information.
I wasn’t sure what Rehab chair meant so great to know that is what I am looking for.

And I do keep forgetting it is called Tilt-In-Space if you need to raise you legs which I absolutely do. A sort of ‘zero gravity’ type position…
Recline function would not help me.
Full-Recline, like ‘portable bed’ look good (actually typed this into search when ‘fully recline wheelchair’ only got me the leaning seat ones) but as you say virtually impossible to find. Probably larger heavier or more difficult to manoeuvre. So less demand.

I found your general comments on more severe ME and chair use much needed validation. I have been ill for decades. Sitting is painful and exhausting to me as well outside stimulation consumes lots of energy. So I do know that this isn’t an easy option. But as you can imagine it is sometimes implied that I am not thinking ‘outside the box’ about how to get outside. Or that I am reluctant to use a chair because that will somehow make me feel less able. When quite the opposite is the case. I badly want one. I just don’t know how easy it will be for me to manage.


I am medium build. Usually small end. I am not my normal long term weight now though. I gained quite a few kilos maybe 8-10 last year from being more severe which can happen for me during a gradual decline. I am wondering how this might impact finding the right size chair because I don’t know if I will stay this way or lose weight as I tend to when becoming either better or even more severe. I have read that measurements needed for a good fit are very precise. So fluctuations could be an issue.

I have Hypermobility and my hands and wrists are quite effected. Also some old spine injuries so finding something comfortable will be tricky. If I want to use it outside I guess suspension is important?

Assitant or companion steering sounds wonderful I agree @JemPD. I have a strong pay back in days following a trip out and the energy used up trying to avoid dogs and little ones like you say @Kitty.
 
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Wits_End said:
I notice the Efoldi was mentioned earlier in this thread. Has anyone tried using it? I'm just curious, because I sort of know the inventor.
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i have tried and disliked it in a couple of showrooms. The strap that serves for back support is inadequate and uncomfortable. Even though it’s pitched as halfway between a disability aid and a personal mobility innovation, it looks depressingly medical - and antiquated, at that. Nothing offsets jolts and bumps. And although it is impressively light and in theory is easy for the user to handle, I still found it too demanding to unfold. Apologies to your inventor chum!
 
Ash said:
I am medium build. Usually small end. I am not my normal long term weight now though. I gained quite a few kilos maybe 8-10 last year from being more severe which can happen for me during a gradual decline. I am wondering how this might impact finding the right size chair because I don’t know if I will stay this way or lose weight as I tend to when becoming either better or even more severe. I have read that measurements needed for a good fit are very precise. So fluctuations could be an issue.
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Moderate fluctuations like 8 to 10 kilos shouldn't be a problem unless you're using an ultra-lightweight chair with very low power, which is unlikely to be a suitable type for you anyway. Your height and body proportions are more important—things like the length of your thighs, which you need to match with a seat of the correct length. Obviously the width of your hips can change with weight gain, but you'd have to put on several stone to make most seats unusable.

Ash said:
I found your general comments on more severe ME and chair use much needed validation. I have been ill for decades. Sitting is painful and exhausting to me as well outside stimulation consumes lots of energy. So I do know that this isn’t an easy option. But as you can imagine it is sometimes implied that I am not thinking ‘outside the box’ about how to get outside. Or that I am reluctant to use a chair because that will somehow make me feel less able. When quite the opposite is the case. I badly want one. I just don’t know how easy it will be for me to manage.
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Ash said:
I have Hypermobility and my hands and wrists are quite effected. Also some old spine injuries so finding something comfortable will be tricky. If I want to use it outside I guess suspension is important?
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There's no way to wrap it up, using powerchairs on bumpy pavements is uncomfortable, even before sensory sensitivities are factored in. Essentially you have the choice between something that feels a bit like riding in a supermarket trolley (a chair with little or no suspension, also known as a hard tail), where you feel every jolt; or being on a trampoline (a chair or scooter with suspension, or a soft tail), because your back bounces against the seat at every bump and throws your head around like a beach ball. Both these effects can be minimised significantly by going along very slowly, of course, but there's not a lot of life-affirming joy to be had from crawling along a pavement at 1mph between rows of buildings, inhaling traffic fumes. I guess it would be amazing if you've been stuck in the house for years, but I wonder how soon the novelty would wear off.

I make every possible effort to avoid using my chair on pavements, as I find it really unpleasant. It's okay to park up outside one supermarket, do some shopping there, and then use the chair to visit another store 350 yards away to save the hassle of loading everything back into the van and driving there—but ordinarily, that's the limit.

Using a chair in a park, nature reserve, or other open space is a completely different experience. There are no painful dropped kerbs, fewer bumps and badly executed pavement repairs, no traffic to dodge, not as many people (and sometimes none at all), you can go over the grass if the path is too lumpy, and you're surrounded by nature and light and weather. That, for me, is the main point of having it.

It does bring its own issues, though, because you have to get the chair from your house to the open space. It took me years to achieve owning both a powerchair and a wheelie-accessible van. I did have some good options before I got it: our city is blessed with a tram network and good bus services, so I could ride my powerchair to places that were served by them; at one point I also hired a boot scooter for a year that would fit in my ancient VW Golf, which meant my friend and I could visit some new places; and some nature reserves offer scooter hire, so I could drive there and borrow one. I don't know how accessible any of those are to a severely affected person, though, unless you're lucky enough to live so close to a nice green space that you could just wheel there.

I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying a powerchair for a moment—most problems can be mitigated, and it's absolutely life-changing to have the freedom to go out. But they're not without complications, and a lot of people spend enormous sums on them only to find that they're harder to use than expected. The main thing is to know what you want it for and how you're going to use it and transport it, and to spend as little as possible until you've established that this or that type is right for you.

I need to go out now, but just a final thing: Motability offers wheelchair leasing, if you receive the mobility component of PIP or DLA. It's not worthwhile for me, because it's an expensive way to do it if you already know that you can use one. But it might give you access to an otherwise unaffordable high-spec chair for long enough to learn whether or not it's worth your while to commit to buying one? It's worth looking into, even if it eventually turns out not to be the best solution.
 
For those who're already using a wheelchair or scooter, I can't recommend these under-trousers highly enough at nippy times of year! They're comfy, flexible, easy to get on and off, and you can wear them under some loose trousers and look reasonably like a normal human being.

When I first started doing wheelchair wildlife trips, I bought some ski salopettes to keep my legs warm. I think they were £140, and that was in a half price sale? They did work well, but were really noisy, made me look like Barney McGrew, and having a wee behind a bush was an epic enterprise—the bloody things were almost impossible to escape from. It was quite a relief when I went up a clothes size after finishing work and could no longer get into them.

These are 12 quid a pair, soft fabric, and you can machine wash them. Glamorous they're not, but you don't care on a freezing cold day! The downward angle of the photo makes them look more bulky around the hips than they really do.

Warm Bottoms 5640 small.jpg

They come in men's trouser sizes, but these correspond roughly to women's—so a size 10 is about equivalent to a 30 waist, 12 is a 32, 14 is a 34, etc.

https://forcesuniformandkit.co.uk/c...czech-army-cold-weather-combat-trouser-liners
 
I’m not well enough to read the full thread, so sorry if this has been resolved. I’m also thinking about this issue as my Wheelchair88 seems to be on the way out.

This wheelchair is affordable and meets almost all my criteria. I probably only need to raise my legs a couple of times a month (it will be mostly be used around the house). Do you think there’s a way to improvise something to raise legs? I don’t think a generic add on would work as there aren’t vertical poles to attach that to:EEB4AF53-79D0-497C-BBAC-98D92690452D.jpeg

https://mobilitypluswheelchairs.co....ghtweight-instant-folding-electric-wheelchair

I don’t think this type of thing would work https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Elevated...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

If there’s a useful post already for this, please share specific link.
 
My main thought is that it's a rear-wheel drive, which are the most difficult to manoeuvre indoors? Mid-wheel and front-wheel are much easier, so they're the usual preference.

Do you need to be able to transport it? If so, you are limited with the drive options—but if not, you might get a secondhand mid-wheel drive with more comfort features for the same money.

This sort of thing (not transportable) will steer much more easily indoors. There are plenty of similar chairs to choose from, some which will get you outside as well—see the second link:

https://www.solutionsmobility.co.uk...y-powerchair-wheelchair-scooter-1yr-warranty/
https://www.solutionsmobility.co.uk...ctric-mobility-powerchair-wheelchair-chair-6/


And this type (which is transportable) may be more comfortable to sit in. Although it's rear-wheel drive, it's worth checking whether the distance between the front and rear wheels is less than the Mobility Plus. The shorter that distance, the smaller the turning circle will be.

https://www.solutionsmobility.co.uk...y-powerchair-power-wheelchair-scooter-copy-2/


These are just from one supplier in the Midlands, but there are many other businesses that sell used powerchairs with a full service and new batteries, and you can save hundreds of pounds. Always try a chair before you buy it, as it's impossible to know how it feels and handles otherwise.
 
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