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Independent advisory group for the full update of the Cochrane review on exercise therapy and ME/CFS (2020), led by Hilda Bastian

Discussion in '2021 Cochrane Exercise Therapy Review' started by Lucibee, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    And because it’s not explicit you play Russian roulette if you use any of these services as to what exactly the approach will be in practice. presumably in some cases even individuals working within the same service might have to go under the radar to not push PACE style approach if their team colleagues/managers are still in the old mindset. And to be frank if a patient is clued up on PACE you’re likely to tone down what you say so even if someone in an ME clinic says they don’t do PACE approach/GET as a patient you have to be a bit sceptical.
     
    sebaaa, JemPD, alktipping and 5 others like this.
  2. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    alktipping, EzzieD, Mithriel and 10 others like this.
  3. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    https://twitter.com/user/status/1285660849080852481
     
  4. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Great to see Paul Garner's fury with both NICE and Cochrane GET recommendations. To see the key point that what we need help with is stopping ourselves overdoing it, not advice to do more, is fantastic. Just what we've been saying for 30 years.
     
  5. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I was a bit put off by the article because it misrepresents NICE's non-statement, but it's otherwise a great summary of the situation and has very strong words from Garner. It clearly marks a shift in attitude. So weird that it's published on BMJ while the editorial board itself has been involved in defending this indefensible nonsense on many recent occasions.

    How incredibly silly will that whole "WE ARE BEING SILENCED" thing will look in the next few months. Especially with the details having been made public as it happened. This process could not have been more inappropriate and corrupt. Politics and medicine make for a toxic mix.
     
  6. MSEsperanza

    MSEsperanza Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Hilda Bastian: Steps to reduce bias in systematic review protocols
    (The Publication Plan)
    https://thepublicationplan.com/2020/07/22/steps-to-reduce-bias-in-systematic-review-protocols/

     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
  7. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I finally got round to submitting a comment about this on the CBT for CFS review

    https://healthycontrolblog.wordpres...hranes-2008-cbt-for-cfs-review-3-august-2020/
     
  8. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This is also relevant here:

    Scottish Government Issue Caution Notice for Graded Exercise Therapy in ME/CFS & Post/Long-Covid

    https://meassociation.org.uk/2020/1...d-exercise-therapy-in-me-cfs-post-long-covid/

    Discussed here:
    https://www.s4me.info/threads/the-m...cise-therapy-in-me-cfs-post-long-covid.17297/

    Especially:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2020
    MSEsperanza, sebaaa, Joh and 12 others like this.
  9. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The Cochrane review is not being revised - it has been already been revised to say (still) that GET is effective at reducing fatigue. Cochrane are going back to the drawing board and doing a new protocol for the review - so it's a completely new review, not a revision. Cochrane have not made this clear, and that's why it's so ridiculous they have not withdrawn the existing "revised" review.
     
    Milo, MSEsperanza, sebaaa and 35 others like this.
  10. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    In other news, my 2nd comment on the 12 year old CBT for CFS review which is now used in four clinical guidelines has been published nearly three months after I submitted it, with another inspiring response from Cochrane Editor John Hilton. Fun fact, I applied for John's job ages ago, and was quite upset (at the time) not to get it! I know John quite well. He's a nice guy. I wonder if I had got that job, I would be writing such responses to people commenting on Cochrane reviews...difficult to get my head round that concept...

    https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD001027.pub2/read-comments
     
    Milo, MSEsperanza, sebaaa and 22 others like this.
  11. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    So their excuse is that at the start of the review they have this sentence in italics:
    Surely if a review is over 10 years old, has been notified to them as out of date and inaccurate, and they can't get the old authors to update it, the only option should be to withdraw the review and commission a new one with a new protocol that takes into account recent develpments.

    I wonder how may other old reviews they have that are giving misinformation.

    There is something very wrong with a setup that gives complete power to the authors of reviews over whether they are updated or withdrawn. Surely the point of having editors means there should be some ability to withdraw old inaccurate reviews.

    Would it be possible for another review team to come forward and undertake to do a new review? If so, can we prompt a few appropriately qualified people who understand the situation and understand good research to step in and do so?
     
  12. Mike Dean

    Mike Dean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Not until ME is moved out of the mental health corral, surely?
     
  13. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    You'd have thought wouldn't you? Cochrane changed their withdrawal policy in August 2019 to allow this ridiculous situation to happen. It's absolutely nuts. When I suggested on this forum that the timing of the policy change was a bit spooky - ie a month after I and others met with the Editor in Chief and begged her to withdraw the exercise review rather than publish the amended version, I was told that there was no evidence that there was any connection between the complaints about the exercise review and the long campaign to get it withdraw and the policy change. True, and I think I have no way to collect any evidence either as Cochrane is not subject to FOI. But I intend to ask about it anyway - minutes of the meetings etc. Usually a Cochrane policy change takes years of consultation - many many meetings, working groups etc.
     
    Milo, MSEsperanza, Cheshire and 28 others like this.
  14. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for your efforts on this @Caroline Struthers. I feel so powerless in these situations.
     
    Milo, MSEsperanza, Sarah94 and 23 others like this.
  15. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    Have they explained what does happen then with a review in this situation? Does it just stay there forever? Can it be replaced by anything else?

    What happens if a different set of authors want to review the exact same topic? Would it never be accepted by Cochrane, on the basis that there is a pre-existing review?
     
  16. Mike Dean

    Mike Dean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    When ME comes out of Cochrane's mental health straitjacket, propose a review that excludes obsolete criteria, such as Oxford, and looks primarily at objective outcomes. A quick job, I imagine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
  17. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think I will lodge a formal complaint about the conduct of the Editor-in-Chief regarding the introduction of the new withdrawal policy which I suspect is the only way to get out of continuing the correspondence via comments between me and John Hilton. There is a thing called "The Cochrane Library Oversight Committee" which is the nearest thing to independent you get within Cochrane - so probably not very independent. But I will give it a whirl. https://www.cochranelibrary.com/help/complaints
     
  18. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    At least that will leave a document trail. Thank for your efforts. I have no expectation that it will lead to even a common sense result never mind justice but I hope that history will see what they have done to us.
     
  19. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Common sense is in very short supply at Cochrane. They have policies and processes aplenty to follow instead, which they seem to think makes up for it. So yes, it will be an academic exercise, but as you say, at least there will be a written record.
     
  20. Lucibee

    Lucibee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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