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Hyperactivation of proprioceptors induces microglia-mediated long-lasting pain in a rat model of chronic fatigue syndrome - Mar 2019 - Yasui et al

Discussion in 'BioMedical ME/CFS News' started by Sly Saint, Mar 30, 2019.

  1. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Hyperactivation of proprioceptors induces microglia-mediated long-lasting pain in a rat model of chronic fatigue syndrome
    https://jneuroinflammation.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12974-019-1456-x

    Personally I do not like this 'rat model' of CFS, I don't think there is anyway that they can say that the rat is suffering from CFS after what they do to achieve it. Thus, IMO, making the whole thing incredibly cruel and futile.
     
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  2. John Mac

    John Mac Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I have no memory of being housed in a cage with a thin level of water
     
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  3. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    If they 'know' how to diagnose CFS in a rat why don't they know how to do it in a 'human'?

    I'm fairly sure that systematically torturing animals is probably not the way forward. Why do i say torturing? Because deliberately inflicting pain in a high stress environment is generally what the word means.
     
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  4. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yup. A very sound opinion, in my opinion.
     
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  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The current rodent models of ME/CFS are ridiculous, and seem to bear no relation to ME/CFS.

    When we create murine models of chronic coxsackievirus B myocarditis, which are useful models, we will actually infect the mouse heart with this virus. Why not try to create a murine ME/CFS model by infecting the mouse brain with coxsackievirus B?
     
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  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That sounds just as pointless and barbaric to be honest.
     
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Three brain post mortem studies on ME/CFS patients showed enterovirus infection in the brain, whereas 8 controls who did not have ME/CFS had no enterovirus in the brain.

    Now of course the statistical significance is not high; that's due to the difficulty in getting brains to study. But a viral brain infection model I think is worth a try.

    Yet to my knowledge nobody has tried to create an ME/CFS mouse model by setting up a chronic enterovirus brain infection.

    A few years ago I wrote to enterovirus virologist Prof Ralph Feuer about the possibility of creating coxsackievirus B brain infection murine model of ME/CFS. This is an excerpt from his reply:


    But the murine brain is not the only organ that you might experimentally target with an infection. We know that several autopsies have shown dorsal root ganglia (DRG) inflammation in ME/CFS, so you could also try to see what happens if you infect the DRG.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  8. roller*

    roller* Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    from the text:
    means, resting helped the mice.

    chicken or egg ?
    - pain promotes negative emotions
    or
    - negative emotions promoting pain ?

     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  9. roller*

    roller* Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    what if mecfs patients were hypnotized?

    you will be feeling no pain, no fatigue ...


    then, they are sent on an exertion parcours.

    back to non-hypnosis - would they show PEM ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  10. Sean

    Sean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Clearly you are in denial and have selectively edited your memories. :bag:
     
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  11. John Mac

    John Mac Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Maybe this is the childhood abuse the BPS crowd are convinced we all suffered, but we've all erased the painful memory of being trapped in a cage.
     
  12. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Painful memories?

    You know where you are in a cage, you know how things stand.

    You know your place in the scheme of things and most of your previous problems become meaningless/irrelevant.

    Constant uncertainty causes stress and unhappiness, so it follows that certainty is a path to happiness :whistle:

    (Why do you think people keep going back to prison? Or why the decision to exist in a small wooden box underground is rarely changed? Certainty, a much undervalued thingymabob.)
     
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  13. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    "Continuous stress-loading" in rats is not a model of CFS and never will be.
     
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  14. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Although I am not keen on the use of animals, I would be curious to know what the effect would be if an ME patients blood (or the serum) were introduced into a mouse or similar; ie if the same 'changes' are effected as in Ron Davis and also Fluge and Mellas test.
     
  15. Cheshire

    Cheshire Moderator Staff Member

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    Seems like others are fed up of mice & rats models (a new and still young but promising twitter account):




     
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  16. Marky

    Marky Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    You can`t give rats ME when we have no idea what it is.. Pointless and cruel research
     
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  17. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It seems we may now have the technology to actually do this, if it's in the red stuff, and that thing makes the non red bits go nuts and have ME, a simple transfer of that thing should do it.

    Of course the rats would then probably have ME, but as they couldn't read, understand the local language, follow simple instructions on how to operate a washing machine or hold a very interesting conversation beforehand what difference would it make, that would be applicable? I mean the physical limitations imposed by ME are unlikely to have a huge impact on an animal that lives in a foot long perspex box and hardly ever has to cook, so that's no help either.

    How would you tell when you'd 'cured' them?
     
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  18. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Maybe you’d know if they weren’t up all night on rats4ME forum
     
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  19. Marky

    Marky Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think we would have to know where in the disease mechanism chain whats apparently in the blood is, for such an experiment to potentially be useful. And even then, as u point out, its difficult to make sense of any potential symptoms in rats, and compare, due to the fact that they are not exactly human.

    I feel like a lot of research that`s being conducted is more grounded in researchers needing something to do, more than genuinely trying to figure out what`s going on (like with Ron Davis & co and Fluge & Mella).
     
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  20. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think, and hope, that the last para of your post may be unfair.

    I suspect that what's happening is researcher thinks "this looks like an interesting thing to study, how can I use what I have, rats, rat wranglers, and such and such drugs and tests, to do something useful", whilst not understanding anything about ME.

    So obviously the research is unlikely to be terrifically useful.

    But this is not really down to the researcher wanting an ME based grant, it's down to almost no one having any understanding of what ME is.

    Which is why we need the research after all.

    So not entirely their fault.
     
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