Havana Syndrome: U.S. and Canadian diplomats targeted with possible weapon causing brain injury and neurological symptoms

leokitten said:
And the NIH ugh always getting things wrong their recent study saying no evidence of brain injury?!?!? Not listening to patients
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It could that the damage is not detectible with the existing technology. Or it could still be a case of mass hysteria. Seems unlikely, but the cover-up theory didn't make sense to me. People on both sides seem credible -- I'm keeping my mind open for now.
 
The plot thickens.

Long investigative report, but worth the read if interested: Unraveling Havana Syndrome: New evidence links the GRU's assassination Unit 29155 to mysterious attacks on U.S. officials and their families.

A shorter summary, 60 minutes is behind much of that investigation: 5-year Havana Syndrome investigation finds new evidence of who might be responsible.

One key piece here is that the investigators noticed that it's specifically targeting some of the best staff they have, mostly people who have been especially effective in working against Russia, which has been a lower priority for decades until recently. The pattern is impossible to ignore, there is no reason why average or below average people wouldn't be just as affected in the psychosomatic hypothesis, career success in this profession has very little to do with pressure from the job, in fact quite the opposite as being effective requires the kind of psychological stability that makes the suggestion of psychological distress very unlikely.

Beyond what technology is behind it, the real weapon isn't even the weapon itself, it's psychosomatic ideology.

It's really the perfect weapon. It's very targeted. It uses a mechanism that is beyond accountability and can be used as expert testimony in a trial, that effectively has the power to overrule law. There is no shortage of MDs who will pompously declare that not seeing any clear evidence of damage, it cannot be anything other than stress from the pressure of a demanding job. They have, and those who have will continue, their reputation and self-image depend on it.
 
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poetinsf said:
Or it could still be a case of mass hysteria
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Mass hysteria?

poetinsf said:
Seems unlikely, but the cover-up theory didn't make sense to me
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Made sense to me given the roots of the NIH coupled with how it's handled other contested conditions.

Maybe they'll call in the interoceptive team to ramrod an investigation.
 
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I think it's incredibly complex when medicine and geopolitics become intertwined - as we discovered when it came to the origins and airborne transmission of covid-19. I will say that this does seem like quite a convenient moment for the attacks to be linked to Russia given that there's waning support for further military aid to Ukraine, particularly from the Republican Party. But as there's no smoking gun either way, this is all purely speculative.

On the medical side, I'm personally torn and have no idea what to think. I don't particularly love the idea of tying the biological reality of ME/CFS and Long Covid to rebutting all suggestions of psychosomatic illness - that chain of thought seems to be the corollary of people like Gaffney using the supposed psychosomatic nature of Havana syndrome to suggest that the same is true of Long Covid. In other words, whatever the scientific reality of Havana Syndrome actually is may have absolutely no import for Long Covid and ME/CFS - or it may have great meaning. Perhaps this indeed is another case of people of the psychosomatic/BPS/FND persuasion leaping on any evidence that allows them to psychologise an illness, and perhaps the NIH studies are a case of how difficult it is to find biological abnormalities when you're looking at a highly heternogenous set of patients with v complex chronic illnesses. Or some cases may be psychosomatic, others may be indeed due to attacks. Who knows? I just think it's important to leave space for any range of outcomes and to approach each illness on its own terms rather than as part of a broader fight against psychologisers.
 
One thing for sure, FND folks will have some serious soul-searching to do if the attack story pans out. If it doesn't, then we'll be pretty much where we are since there is no such a thing as a definitive proof for FND, for HS or anything else, since it's a diagnosis of exclusion.
 
Very disappointed to discover that Tim Harford has given psychogenic blah blah a free pass and Robert E. Bartholomew's book an uncritical recommendation. Listening to Tim Harford explaining psychogenic illness it could be Wessely or Sharpe talking.

https://timharford.com/2023/06/cautionary-tales-sonic-poison-the-genesis-of-havana-syndrome/

Must he too go onto the list of people I was originally impressed by (Ben Goldacre, Malcolm Gladwell, SJ Gould) but later saddened to find how much utter shite they spouted?
 
Psychosomatics is one of the most seductive, insidious, and destructive memes of them all. It offers the hope of mind over matter, a level of control that every human wants fervently to be true.

Unfortunately it is false. We all age and die, regardless of how much we will it otherwise. Morbidity and mortality can only be mitigated and delayed, but never denied. In the end matter rules supreme.
 
poetinsf said:
One thing for sure, FND folks will have some serious soul-searching to do if the attack story pans out. If it doesn't, then we'll be pretty much where we are since there is no such a thing as a definitive proof for FND, for HS or anything else, since it's a diagnosis of exclusion.
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Oh zero chance this ever happens. Even past the point at which almost all medical issues can be explained with technology, those trained on this ideology will insist that they were always right, in fact that they were vindicated, that there's this tiny nugget left they could still explain, they just need more research, always the same research.

Humans generally fare terribly at admitting our own mistakes. This industry was built on and exists on hubris and self-important egomania, they are some of the least likely humans to ever admit any wrong.
 
(Off topic.)

Meanwhile, in Sweden.... At the end of February this year, hundreds of people were evacuated from the Swedish Security Service headquarters building and eight (including several police officers) sent to hospital due to nausea and breathing problems, after reports of an unusual smell. It was first reported as a suspected gas leak, and emergency services reported that phosgene (the World War One poison gas) was recorded by sensors on the roof of the building. But security services have since said no gas was detected inside or outside the building.

According to an official statement today, the investigation has been closed. It was a "technical error", and "there was definitely no gas". "Only psychosomatic issues that arose when the alert went off", "placebo".

BBC commented at the time "The incident came as Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson visited the capital of Hungary, the only Nato member that has not yet ratified Stockholm's accession to the alliance.", "In response, Russia says it will monitor Sweden's next steps and adopt 'military-technical and other' measures to protect itself."

Utredningen om gas på Säpo läggs ner – skador var placebo
https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/efter-gaslarmet-vid-sapo-polisen-lagger-ner-utredningen

Sweden: Eight in hospital after reports of unusual smell at Security Service headquarters
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68383608

Phosgene was detected at Sweden security service HQ, report suggests
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68428670
 
I got really irritable when I saw that Jon Stone and the FND crew had become part of this story back in 2021.

I knew, of course, that psychological theories had been floated to explain this from the beginning of it being publicly known.

Not surprising at all of course, but I learnt the hard way that it is seemingly an extremely common impulse (mental rule, virtually) for many (most?) people to label any symptoms that aren’t instantly and definitively diagnosed with a known organic disease as psychological.

I even look back on my own personal history of sometimes being guilty of doing that and feel totally ashamed.

Anyway, what I meant to say was that while I was aware of those theories I wasn’t aware that the FND crew had popped up to claim this as FND specifically.

I only just learned of that recently. I imagine it has been posted here before but Jon Stone was interviewed as part of a podcast looking at Havana Syndrome.

This is an article with a link to the podcast episode in question, but it also has an edited transcript of the part where the presenter talks to Jon Stone.

https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/2...-neurologist-functional-neurological-disorder
 
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rvallee said:
There are similar issues with repetitive brain injuries. I recently saw a story about a former military, I think he was special forces, who suffered what he thinks are consequences from blasts suffered in service. This is pretty close to the story of "shell shock" as well. Militaries are very reluctant to recognize it because it means a lot more money towards disability and medical support. GWI shows how far they are still willing to take denial.
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Did Army Blast Exposure Play Role in Maine Gunman’s Rampage?
Publicly, the Army has said almost nothing about Mr. Card’s time in uniform — only that he was trained as a petroleum supply specialist and never deployed to combat. But soldiers who spoke to The New York Times said that description left out something crucial: Mr. Card worked every summer for years as an instructor at an Army hand grenade training range, where he was rocked by thousands of brain-jarring explosions.

For generations, the military assumed that the blast waves that troops experienced from firing weapons or throwing grenades in training posed no danger to them. It is only in the last few years that increasing evidence of harm from repeated exposure, along with mandates from Congress, has driven the Defense Department to start trying to track, study and understand the impact of blast exposure.
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Gradzy said:
I even look back on my own personal history of sometimes being guilty of doing that and feel totally ashamed.
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Most of us have fallen for it in some form or other, especially early on in our ME journey, because we desperately wanted it to be true. Being able to will away a disease would be wonderful. But it just isn't true.

So you are in good company. :hug:
 
‘There is so much anger’: Havana syndrome victims frustrated CIA isn’t blaming Russia for symptoms

This is sort of follow-up story after the latest 60 Minute episode.

"The CIA in an internal memo sent to its workforce shortly after the episode aired claimed that all of the incidents in the piece had been investigated and that the agency had not changed its conclusion that Russia was unlikely to be involved, according to two sources familiar with the memo."

"A lawyer representing some of the victims, Mark Zaid, as well as Polymeropoulos, are now claiming that CIA officers were required to participate in the NIH studies as a prerequisite for receiving care at Walter Reed. According to Zaid, any “order” to participate in the study was conveyed to officers verbally.

Other sources familiar with the allegations say the truth is more nuanced."
 
From the 'Did Army Blast Exposure Play Role in Maine Gunman's Rampage?' - an interesting read, thanks @Gradzy
Military psychologists for generations have noticed that a surprising number of high-performing soldiers tended to become erratic and self-destructive, and were plagued by anxiety, insomnia and difficulty concentrating as they neared retirement in their 40s. It was so commonplace that doctors even had a label for it, Old Soldier Syndrome.

article in the journal Military Medicine, an Army psychologist suggested that the symptoms were caused by fear of retirement. Later generations of military psychologists were more likely to ascribe them to combat exposure and latent post-traumatic stress disorder.

It is only recently that a group of psychologists has suggested that years of weapons blast exposure might be to blame.

A 2021 paper documented Operator Syndrome — a widespread pattern of behavioral and physical problems among career Navy SEALs and other special operations troops — and argued that brain injury, both from enemy blasts and from the operators’ own weapons, lay at the root of most of the problems.

“It wasn’t PTSD, it wasn’t based on a fear response — it was something else,” said Chris Frueh, a professor of psychology at the University of Hawaii and the lead author of the paper. “There is no question in my mind that blast plays a big part in that.”
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In NZ there has recently been the case of a rugby player who suffered many concussions in his life. He became psychotic and violent and took his own life. An autopsy confirmed brain damage.
 
Geez that's high on the WTF!? index. Fear of retirement? Is there any imaginary fear they can't exploit? They've pretty much nearly covered all the types that can be imagined at this point. Especially when you consider that retirement is often the thing most soldiers look forward too. Not all, sure, but come on none of this should have been surprising about people subjected to all sorts of blunt force trauma, and much more.

Anyway, I mentioned this a few times before but it's a big issue in some American pro sports leagues as well, especially hockey and American football. Pretty much the same thing, irrational behavior, symptoms too easy to attribute to some form of stress and lots of suicides and early deaths, more so among those who played a more physical style, e.g. fights.

And of course the leagues are in big denial over this, because of all the liability that will inevitably ensue. It's actually been suggested many times that American football, and Rugby, should be banned, at least for kids. But it's a huge business in the US, culturally important too, so the best they can come up with is helmets that help lessen the blows a bit.

Which is kind of similar to war stories about how army medics started complaining about helmet usage causing so much brain damage in soldiers in WWI, oblivious that without those helmets, the soldiers just died, so they didn't see them.
 
Hutan said:
From the 'Did Army Blast Exposure Play Role in Maine Gunman's Rampage?' - an interesting read, thanks @Gradzy

In NZ there has recently been the case of a rugby player who suffered many concussions in his life. He became psychotic and violent and took his own life. An autopsy confirmed brain damage.
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As a former rugby player and still a fan, sport-related CTE is something I've followed closely. There have been a number of similar awful events.

I think I've mentioned that many of my ME symptoms overlap (not suggesting I have CTE, rather that the ME has done something to my brain). I've always thought it interesting as well that such awful damage with terrible behavioural consequences can only be diagnosed post mortem.
 
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