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Fatigue is associated with altered monitoring and preparation of physical effort in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (2018) van der Meer et al

Discussion in 'PsychoSocial ME/CFS Research' started by strategist, Feb 17, 2018.

  1. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Is it just me or are they more honest about their views than usual?

    I'm not 100% sure how to interpret this but it sounds like they may have shown that fatigued people put in less effort, and believe they are more limited in their activities. This is then interpreted as the beliefs causing the fatigue and limitation. I would be surprised if they properly excluded the ordinary interpretation that fatigue causes this belief and limitation.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451902218300430
     
    strategist, Feb 17, 2018
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  2. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    :banghead:
    Conclusions
    These findings link fatigue symptoms to alterations in behavioural choices on effort investment, prefrontal functioning and SMA connectivity, with the DLPFC being associated with prior beliefs about physical abilities.
     
    Kalliope, Feb 17, 2018
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  3. TiredSam

    TiredSam Moderator Staff Member

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    Swallowing a dictionary doesn't make it any cleverer.

    Thank you.
     
    TiredSam, Feb 17, 2018
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  4. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    No 'fatiguing' disease control group, this is useless... another study wasting money as its design does not allow to draw any conclusion about these specific differences being linked to CFS or to being sick, and certainly not a causalty link as they do.
     
    Cheshire, Feb 17, 2018
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  5. FreeSarah

    FreeSarah Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    People with a condition that knocks them flat on their arse when they exert themselves tend to be a little cautious about exerting themselves ...

    When are the Nobel prizes announced?
     
    FreeSarah, Feb 17, 2018
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  6. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    I've only read the abstract. It looks like a worrying paper because it seems to give scientific validity to the 'false illness beliefs' nonsense by tying it to a test done with a machine and therefore supposedly objective. But it assumes the beliefs of the patients that they can't make more effort are false, rather than a realistic knowledge of the limitations imposed by their illness.
     
    Trish, Feb 17, 2018
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  7. Chris

    Chris Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    "Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is characterized by disabling fatigue, which is suggested to be maintained by dysfunctional beliefs."

    "suggested" - well put, the process of hypnotic suggestion comes to mind. "Look at my pendulum and slowly repeat after me: "I have dysfunctional beliefs, I have dysfunctional beliefs, I have…"
     
    Chris, Feb 17, 2018
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  8. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Wasn't there a study a few years back that actually tested if ME patients puts as much effort into trial/tasks as healthy controls.

    They seemed to show that ME patients really were applying themselves and not faking.

    I think it was an Australian study. Anyone remember?

    Eta - had a quick look but cant find it
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
    Invisible Woman, Feb 17, 2018
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  9. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    But they do not say what causes what. The inference they want people to take away, is that lower effort investment is driven by the false illness belief. But from the abstract at least I don't think there is anything supporting that. They don't mention the other possibility of course, that the lower effort investment is sensibly applied to fit within physical limitations.
     
    Barry, Feb 17, 2018
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  10. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    There was this study from Australia:
     
    Dolphin, Feb 17, 2018
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  11. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Invisible Woman, Feb 17, 2018
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  12. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Woolie dont want to stress you out so feel free to ignore this. Just would appreciate any thoughts you have on this like @Trish i think it is concerning.
     
    NelliePledge, Mar 3, 2018
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  13. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I don't have access to the full article, and might not get the answer to my question even if I did.

    Can anyone tell me, without too much scientific complexity, how this study discriminated between sub-optimal effort due to physical effects, versus sub-optimal effort due to psychological effects.

    I have sometimes thought that if you were to do a sort of "frogs legs electrical signal test" on a person in a suitably ethical way, could you then assess if the problem is in the muscles themselves or not, or in the signalling to the muscles. If it showed the problem was the muscles, then that would seem pretty cut and dried. If it showed a signalling problem, then there would still be much scope for a physical problem, but would cut down where to look. But I presume this sort of sanity check must already have been done.
     
    Barry, Mar 3, 2018
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  14. Allele

    Allele Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Drop the title into sci-hub.hk
     
    Allele, Mar 4, 2018
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  15. oldtimer

    oldtimer Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    oldtimer, Mar 4, 2018
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  16. Cheesus

    Cheesus Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Julia Newton at Newcastle University has done that. She took muscle cultures from patients and controls then subjected them to continued electrical stimulation and measured the response. Unsurprisingly, there was significant differences between patients and controls.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0122982
     
    Cheesus, Mar 8, 2018
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  17. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I see this demonstrates muscle fatigue abnormalities compared to healthy controls. Do we know if there is anything similar that proves abnormalities against other fatigueing conditions? (I've only briefly skimmed this article).
     
    Barry, Mar 8, 2018
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  18. Cheesus

    Cheesus Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Barry Not to my knowledge.
     
    Cheesus, Mar 8, 2018
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  19. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Some researchers seem to confuse the directionality between cause and effect due to preconceived biases...
     
    Snow Leopard, Mar 9, 2018
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