InitialConditions
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Would like to see a deep-dive into this data if it's available and someone has the time.
Further what is most worrying about the presentation of pacing as a curative treatment is that it is setting up patients for future relapses. The apparent improvement is not necessarily an unlimited escalator. My experience has been that there is still an activity ceiling and approaching it gradually does not prevent the relapse being triggered when it is exceeded, this approach may not produce negative consequences as quickly as GET can, but the crash can be worse because of that. A period of six months or a year or even longer of apparent gradual improvement can more deeply reinforce the idea that this is a curative treatment and also allow the individual more time to take on life commitments both of which make backtracking on activity levels much harder when the ceiling is hit.
Sky News:
'Long COVID: New study focusing on paced increase in physical activity sees 'impressive results'
16th December 2022
'A new study has found "impressive results" with its long COVID programme, which was based on a "gradual or paced increase" in a patient's physical activity.'
https://news.sky.com/story/long-cov...hTJRjVPycH59pdX_rLB5QDVmSOJaOD6ecDMikgh9xUS5I
I think we should not go along with using the word 'pacing' or 'paced' for programs which are clearly NOT pacing but ARE Graded Exercise/Graded Activity. What I mean is try not to adopt their language outside of quotes. It muddies the water around what pacing actually is, it becomes insidious and soon enough the idea gets around that there are different kinds of pacing and some kinds are 'paced activity programs' ie GET.
We've seen this before when BPS advocates call ME 'Medically Unexplained Symptoms' and soon enough unwary patients start calling ME 'Medically Unexplained Symptoms'. Inadvertently Captured, Co-Opted, fooled by language tricks.
Here is the Leeds Long COVID rehabilitation booklet.
It says it's
"Produced in partnership: The Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust and Leeds Community Healthcare NHS Trust"
https://flipbooks.leedsth.nhs.uk/LN005039.pdf
It has struck me that things have come an awfully long way:
The booklet explains PESE. It also talks about heart rate monitoring.
I think that my main issue is with the levels of positivity. It even has a picture of a rainbow on the front cover!
I does read as though if you follow this, you will get better ... which may well be true for many people ... but ...
But to be fair, there are warnings and caveats all the way through.
What's lacking are any statements that this might be it.
i.e. that you might not fully recover regardless what you do.
I have had ME/CFS for over 30 years now. If I'm honest, I do practise a lot of the techniques that are listed in the leaflet. I have arrived at this point through much trial and error and through (more recently) trying to keep up with the science.
But no-one EVER prepared me for the possibility that I might never be well again. The GP who diagnosed me 30+ years ago (fairly quickly to be fair) said it might take a couple of years. But she never said it could be life-long, although there were indications she knew.
So this is the only part that I feel is unethical. People should be told what they are dealing with.
(Unless they are deciding not to make a link with ME/CFS.)
Your thoughts would be appreciated. I live in Leeds. I know folk whom this could directly effect.
If you experience PEM, you need to avoid exercise and activities that cause
PEM and aim to conserve your energy. If you don’t experience PEM, you can
gradually increase your level of activity or exercise to improve your fitness
levels.
the Borg thing
This is is really the height of pseudoscience propaganda. It's as absurd as touting a vegetarian diet that features meat with every meal. Almost every detail involved is completely wrong, including the main concepts.Moved posts
'Structured Pacing Protocol' is the latest name for GET
Sky News:
'Long COVID: New study focusing on paced increase in physical activity sees 'impressive results'
16th December 2022
'A new study has found "impressive results" with its long COVID programme, which was based on a "gradual or paced increase" in a patient's physical activity.'
https://news.sky.com/story/long-cov...hTJRjVPycH59pdX_rLB5QDVmSOJaOD6ecDMikgh9xUS5I
Telegraph article by Sarah Knapton, Science Editor, 16th December 2022
'Long Covid can be reversed with a six-week exercise plan, study finds'
'Scientists in Leeds have found that fatigue, brain fog and breathlessness can be cut down by using the right exercise regimen'
'Long Covid can be reversed in six weeks with a plan that gradually increases exercise over time, a trial has shown.
The programme takes people from gentle stretching and breathing exercises and builds up, until they are doing the activities they were doing before they became ill, such as sports or workouts.
It was tested on 31 people who have been suffering symptoms of Long Covid such as fatigue, brain fog and breathlessness, for around 17 months, and who reported three ‘crashes’ a week where they were left exhausted after mild physical or mental exertion
Six weeks later, at the end of the programme, that was reduced to an average of one crash a week.
The patients also experienced moderate improvement in their ability to be active and better quality of life.' ......
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-reversed-six-week-exercise-plan-study-finds/
The research:
'Effect of using a structured pacing protocol on post-exertional symptom exacerbation and health status in a longitudinal cohort with the post-COVID-19 syndrome'
Megan Parker, Hannah Brady Sawant, Thuvia Flannery, Rachel Tarrant, Jenna Shardha, Rebecca Bannister, Denise Ross, Stephen Halpin, Darren C. Greenwood, Manoj Sivan
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.28373
So they don't bother checking any of the basic details, even when they report to professionals.Also noticed that in the Pulse article, it says that the "home-based pacing protocol" was "developed by the [Leeds] research team for the World Health Organisation..."
so I've contacted WHO Europe to ask whether this was indeed the case.
While somehow slapping themselves a WHO sticker of approval on a study that has nothing to do with the WHO.So it looks like the researchers here have ignored this and tried to get people with PEM to use the Borg thing to increase their activity.
The Leeds leaflet does say on page 45:It looks like they've left out the crucial bit of the WHO protocol [pdf], which is:
I think the best way to put this would be to apply the same logic to a sedentary person who would do this level of exertion as reported in most of those trials.I think there is a fundamental problem that there is no evidence that telling people with PEM to exercise is of any benefit to them. So why tell people to try to do 'exercises' at all. It makes no sense.
I think the best way to put this would be to apply the same logic to a sedentary person who would do this level of exertion as reported in most of those trials.
Let's take someone who hasn't done any physical activity in a year. Not bedbound or anything like that, just the ultimate couch potato. Make them do a very slow gradual exercise program that goes so slowly that by a year mark they've increased only trivially, say 10% more steps on the 6-min walking test. Which is about the level of the claims about GET. Hell, go nuts and do 20% if you feel fancy about it.
Is that person more fit at the end than when they began? In better shape? Has improved their physical condition? Laughable. Of course not. It's such a low level of exertion it cannot possibly count as conditioning.
I don't understand how that basic logic can be suspended alongside insistence that there is nothing wrong with us, which would be comparable to the example of a highly sedentary person as far as they claim.
It's as absurd as a financial program that sets aside about $1 per day and promises you'll have millions in a few years. Nothing adds up, it takes complete suspension of disbelief to pretend this is legitimate.