Depressive symptoms at age 9–13 and chronic disabling fatigue at age 16: A longitudinal study -Aug 2019 Collin,Loades, Crawley et al

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic research - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by Sly Saint, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Journal of Adolescence
    Volume 75, August 2019, Pages 123-129

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140197119301289

    again using this proxy CDF (chronic disabling fatigue).
    Is this now a formal diagnosis?
    Or are they maybe, finally, realising that CDF does not equate to ME or CFS?

    (they are already apparently beginning to question use of the Chalder Fatigue Scale. see thread:
    https://www.s4me.info/threads/bristol-cfs-me-clinic-researching-patients-problems-with-chalder-fatigue-questionnaire.10683/ )
     
  2. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Deep depression can have significant fatigue as a self-reported symptom (I know this from a close family member long time back), but that is a million miles away from depression being a causal factor in ME. Indeed, give what I recall of my relative, if you took a large cohort of people with severe depression as their primary condition, I'd be amazed if a significant percentage of them did not report significant fatigue. Maybe EC and Co. are now deciding to call it something else, CDF, given the game is up that it is not ME.
     
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  3. James Morris-Lent

    James Morris-Lent Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Some clarification/elaboration from the body of the article:

     
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  4. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Positive predictive values were poor,

    mean years - sensitivity - PPV (manually calculated by me for all you Bayes lovers)
    9.7 - 11.5% - 6.3%
    10.6 - 13.3% - 3.5%
    11.7 - 9.84% - 5.0%
    12.8 - 18.6% - 4.1%
    13.2 - 16.7% - 6.8%
    13.8 - 35.2% - 4.4% (curious loss of specificity, with a gain of sensitivity, overall no change on PPV!)



    So the sensitivity dropped from fairly low to something non significant.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  5. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Who keeps funding the same studies being done over and over again? This is truly pathetic.

    And Crawley should be barred from researching on children. She has showed serious lapses in judgment in regards to informed consent. Enough of this nonsense.

    Aren't pediatricians physicians? Does that mean Crawley simply did not want to bother with that? Again with the churn of low-quality research. And they are doing that while being silenced and chased out of this field of research, almost impressive.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  6. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This paper does seem to take at least a small step back from fatigue/low mood=ME/cfs.

    I'd like to think that in private a journal editor or two has suggested they step up their game with regard to how they conduct their research.

    If so, there is a long journey ahead.

    Baby steps.

    Just to add: it seems to me at least some of what they are studying is just normal teenage growth and development. This whole group seems intent on manipulating things so that everyone behaves all exactly alike.
     
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  7. large donner

    large donner Guest

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    How the hell does the study make any sense then if no one has anything ruled in our out? Who the hell is the cohort and what are you trying to prove or disprove.
     
  8. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    CDF because not examined by a physician- well on that basis a substantial number of adults who have been seen by CFS clinics must be classed as having CDF because a lot of (majority?) patients are seen without any physician input.

    However to get referred you have to be seen by your GP who according to NICE guidelines can diagnose you.

    So it’s just garbled clap trap.
     
  9. Amw66

    Amw66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    A common issue with paediatric research.
    Sadly here even with a physician diagnosis it would count for little .
     
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  10. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    It looks to me that the most important finding from this is that the Chalder Fatigue Scale is not a valid way of measuring ME/CFS, because it's confounded by depression.

    They found an association between early depression and later fatigue measured with CFQ, but once they removed the cases who were still depressed at the later stage, the association disappeared.

    That tells me that the CFQ is a measure of fatigue caused by depression, as well as fatigue caused by anything else (that was already obvious, but it's interesting to have it confirmed). That makes ME/CFS studies that use it as an outcome measure invalid unless they exclude people with depression. (I seem to remember a lot of the PACE participants also had depression).

    Does that make sense?
     
  11. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I suspect 'fatigue' probably has many different incarnations, despite being referred to by a single word.
     
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