Covid-19 vaccines and vaccinations

Binkie4 said:
One of the things that has struck me strongly about having an adverse response to taking the vaccine is how similarly one is judged, to people with ME. The adverse response, like the illness, is ignored and one's experience is invalidated.

There seems to be no interest in finding the groups for whom the vaccine is unsafe and why. There seem to be a number of people with ME affected. It seems certain that repeated vaccines will be with us for a considerable while, and this adds constant pressure to feeling unsafe because one knows one is becoming more and more unprotected ...the statistics are churned out....and no one cares. There is no investigation of who is particularly at risk or why. One becomes more isolated and mental health suffers. I am sorry that Jack couldn't hold on.
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I've met so many people who were healthy and living full lives before having the vaccine. So many of them are being ignored and told that they are anxious. A lot of specialists won't even see someone if they mention that it is vaccine related. Thankfully there are doctors who do believe that the vaccines are responsible; one neurologist told one of his patients that he estimated that 60% of his new patients last year were all complaining of the same neurological symptoms post vaccine so he had to believe that there was a connection. The same with ophthalmologists; they are seeing an increase in patients with problems with focusing but all the eye exams are showing nothing as being wrong. It's the brain that's the issue. No one wants to talk about it. No one wants to acknowledge that there's a problem. It's only a small percentage of us who are being affected by the vaccines, but we exist.
 
Mij said:
Received another call today to book a home visit. They called 2 weeks ago and one month before that.

I might have Covid but don't have symptoms.

The nurse still hasn't heard any news regarding the new and improved version.
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I don't see the point of having the old vaccine when there is a new one out there. We know that the current vaccines do little to stop people from getting covid at this point in time.

There is an epidemiologist here in Vancouver who is worried about the number of vaccines that we have been given and the fact that no one knows how this is going to affect the immune system going forward. His worry is that at some point having too many of the same vaccine is going to damage the immune system in ways that we don't know yet.
 
Many people get a flu vaccine every year (which is updated to 3 or 4 of the latest variants, similar to how the fall mRNA boosters will be updated to the latest variant, though they will also contain some of the original strain spike mRNA too). Flu vaccine is of course associated with lower risk of death in those at significant risk (older folks), not just from flu directly but also from cardiovascular events.

For other vaccines, we get tetanus, diptheria, pertussis, polio, hep B, rotavirus, etc. between 3-6 times in childhood. We're supposed to get tetanus and diptheria once every ten years as adults. Very few of the vaccines we have are one and done, some are two doses, but three or more is common.

But with Covid, while it looks like the protection against severe disease or death seems to last pretty well, protection against infection fades fast (as does protection against infection from having been infected). Despite the claims from political types earlier in the pandemic, this is not a surprise at all, as we know that immunity from other coronaviruses (which cause colds) fades pretty fast as well, mostly because they evolve pretty quickly. So we're going to need updated vaccines frequently.

I think it's really unfortunate that the messaging on the vaccines was so bad, based on hope rather than solid science. No one should ever have claimed two doses would be the whole story.
 
U.S authorizes updated COVID-19 boosters targeting newest variants.

The updated boosters are only for people who have already had their primary vaccinations, using the original vaccines. Doses made by Pfizer and its partner BioNTech are for anyone 12 and older who’s due for a booster while Moderna’s updated shots are for adults. They’re not to be used for initial vaccinations.


https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2022-08-31/covid-boosters-newest-variants

 
As far as I know the plan in the autumn in the UK seems to be only to give this booster to the over 50s or those clinically vulnerable, with ME/CFS patients currently excluded from the CV group. Not that it would be easy to go and get a vaccine in the arm at the moment but its not going to be on offer under the current plans.
 
My new understanding is that Canada is going to start administering the new BA.1 (Omicron) booster which is no longer circulating or dominant? Basically getting boosted for nothing in this case. The new vaccine does not include BA.4 and BA.5 subvariants which will arrive later.

In that case I'm going to wait for the vaccine that includes BA.4 and BA.5 subvariants.
 
Just a summary of my experiences with Covid and Covid Vaccinations...

1) I had Covid in November 2021. It lasted quite a long time - I was unable to do my normal activities for two weeks, and spent most of that time in bed. Once I'd got over the worst I had lingering effects for another four weeks.

2) In December 2021 I learned that a relative of mine who was about 3 or 4 years younger than me had an Astra Zeneca Vaccination for Covid and died of a massive blood clot in her heart - she basically dropped dead at home, she hadn't been hospitalised, and wasn't known to have heart problems before dying. It was attributed by both family and doctors to the vaccination. I don't know any more details.

3) At the start of 2022 OH and I got almost a year's notice of an invite to a family party abroad. At the time I was unvaccinated but knew that if I wanted to go I would need to be vaccinated. So I had my first (Moderna) vaccine in January and had just a few days of a sore arm and that was it.

4) In March 2022 I had my second vaccination (also Moderna) and it was a completely different kettle of fish. I felt like I had Covid again. I was in bed for three days and felt rough in total for about a week.

5) I had my first booster on Monday of this week (Pfizer), and I had the same effect as the previous vaccine - I developed quite severe Covid symptoms again, but worse than the previous vaccination. I still have more recovering to do.

6) My husband got none of the side effects of being vaccinated that I did, although we were vaccinated at different times with different vaccinations. The only symptom he has had is a sore arm.

7) I have decided that having Covid three times (once for real and twice via vaccination) is enough for me. I'm not going to get any more vaccinations and I will just keep my fingers tightly crossed about what happens in the future. I've done what was necessary for going abroad and we aren't likely to travel again in the next few years, so I'm done.
 
Mij said:
My new understanding is that Canada is going to start administering the new BA.1 (Omicron) booster which is no longer circulating or dominant? Basically getting boosted for nothing in this case. The new vaccine does not include BA.4 and BA.5 subvariants which will arrive later.

In that case I'm going to wait for the vaccine that includes BA.4 and BA.5 subvariants.
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I think it will always inevitably be the case that vaccines run behind the development of the next variant of the virus in the community. Each new variant vaccine needs to be developed, manufactured, tested and distributed, and with Covid changing so rapidly it will inevitably have mutated again.

I think it's still worth getting the most recent vaccine available, as it will still give better protection than the old ones, and in any case even without mutation, these vaccines, and indeed catching the virus itself, don't give lasting protection.
 
Trish said:
I think it's still worth getting the most recent vaccine available, as it will still give better protection than the old ones, and in any case even without mutation, these vaccines, and indeed catching the virus itself, don't give lasting protection.
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I agree with this for the general population. For myself personally since I live alone and don't interact with too many people, I am weighing out the risks as to whether I should or shouldn't take this new vaccine.
 
Mij said:
In that case I'm going to wait for the vaccine that includes BA.4 and BA.5 subvariants.
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Right now, the most likely candidate for the next variant wave in the fall is BA.2.75, which is already growing quickly in India, Nepal and Australia. BA.2.75 is of course a descendent of BA.2, not BA.4/5, so it's not clear that a BA.4/5 vaccine would be any better than a BA.1 vaccine.

In fact, a recent preprint showed serum from people who had three Sinovac shots plus BA.1 infection neutralized BA.2.75 just as well as serum from people who had three Sinovac shots plus BA.5 infection (actually a little bit better with BA.1, but they didn't have many samples in the BA.5 group). Vaccines might not provide the same immunity as infection, but it seems like a reasonable guess to say that BA.1 and BA.4/5 vaccines are probably similarly effective against BA.2.75.

upload_2022-9-1_9-5-1.png

I think that by the time we actually get widely available fall boosters in Canada, BA.5 is likely to be mostly over, so it's what's next that's relevant and our best guess for that right now is BA.2.75. I'll definitely be getting a BA.1 vaccine as soon as I can (even though the side effects for the first three mRNA doses were pretty unpleasant for me).

The US just announced approval of BA.4/5 shots, which they are saying will be available as soon as next week. So we'll probably know more about the comparison between the two in six weeks or so.

I wonder if Canada decided they didn't want the BA.4/5 vaccine because there is less data behind it or Pfizer and Moderna only had enough BA.4/5 vaccine for the US and the rest of us are getting the older version. I suspect the latter.
 
Health Canada approves Moderna vaccine against Omicron variant
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1909812/canada-covid-19-varinat-omicron-vaccin (September 1, 2022 - French)

Health Canada on Thursday approved Moderna's bivalent COVID-19 vaccine, which targets the original strain of the coronavirus as well as the Omicron BA.1 subvariant.
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According to data provided to Health Canada, the results demonstrated that the new Bivalent Spikevax vaccine induces similar responses to the original virus and significantly higher responses to the Omicron BA.1 virus.
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Additionally, while not targeting the BA.4 and BA.5 subvariants of the Omicron variant, clinical trials suggest that the new bivalent vaccine elicits a " superior neutralizing antibody response " against the BA.4 and BA.5 subvariants compared to a second booster dose with the original vaccine.
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The side effect rates for this new vaccine are similar to the original vaccine
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The National Advisory Committee on Immunization (CCNI) recommends that a booster dose of the bivalent vaccine be offered to persons 18 years of age and older and adolescents 12 to 17 years of age with moderately to severely immunocompromised conditions. However, if this vaccine is not available, the original vaccine, which remains very effective, can be administered as a booster dose, explained Dr Njoo.

Vulnerable people and those who need to take a booster dose should not postpone their appointment for the bivalent vaccine, recommends the Deputy Chief Public Health Officer of Canada.
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A bivalent vaccine against Pfizer's BA.1 subvariant is also under consideration by Health Canada.

Additionally, Moderna and Pfizer have developed bivalent vaccines targeting the Omicron BA.4 and BA.5 strains, but the companies have yet to submit these products for Health Canada approval. In the United States, the FDA on Wednesday announced its approval of bivalent vaccines by Pfizer and Moderna that specifically target Omicron BA.4 and BA.5 strains. Health Canada indicates that it should obtain a submission from the companies for approval within a few weeks.
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* All excerpts are translations
 
Mij said:
The updated boosters are only for people who have already had their primary vaccinations, using the original vaccines. .... They’re not to be used for initial vaccinations.

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2022-08-31/covid-boosters-newest-variants
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why are they not for initial vaccinations?

i get that original antigenic sin is not well understood, but wouldn't it be better to fixate on newer + older variants? i'd prefer that, but perhaps somebody with a working brain cell unlike mine now knows.
this lay article seems a bit confused.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/08/22/coronavirus-immune-response-boosters/ .

this unreasonable wall of text in science might or might not be relevant https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.abq5901 . but my brain cell and my average of one microsecond window per day of semi-almost-but-not usefulness are not up to it either.

in any case this would be relevant to me if i had a choice. i am still trying to get somebody to vaccinate in house /after/ i wake up to prevent permanent harm from circadian hit. [bedridden.]
 
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Mij said:
Wouldn't receiving so many Covid vaccines exhaust our immune system?
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No, quite the opposite - it leads to higher spike-specific circulating antibodies, but the problem is the vaccine primes the immune system for an out of date spike-protein, which alters the response to developing immunity against current variants (Hoskins effect).

Samuel said:
why are they not for initial vaccinations?

i get that original antigenic sin is not well understood, but wouldn't it be better to fixate on newer + older variants? i'd prefer that, but perhaps somebody with a working brain cell unlike mine now knows.
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Agreed. It is a poor choice.
 
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