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Cochrane Exercise Review Withdrawn - Individual Patient Data

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic news - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by RuthT, Dec 8, 2018.

  1. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    So it’s been exhumed :wtf:
     
  2. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I am fairly sure the full author team, including White et al submitted a manuscript of the full IPD review. It was then peer reviewed, including by patients (or as Cochrane call them, consumers) and did not past muster, to put it mildly. I'm not 100% sure of this, as it was a while ago, and I may have misremembered. I was told this by a person with ME, but I can't remember if this person had a/ requested to see the draft of the IPD review and was endlessly told "there wasn't time", or b/ actually did see it and had a chance to give feedback. So yes I think the review was pulled partly because of the authorship optics, but also because it was not a good review. Bad enough to pull it altogether rather than allow the authors to endlessly amend it. I would love to get the correspondence actually. I might try and get it via the Norwegian Institute of Public Health (Freedom of Information).
     
    Michelle, alktipping, FMMM1 and 15 others like this.
  3. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Tweedle Dee can't do that, but Tweedle Dum can.

    Very serious organization.
     
  4. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    So, it's definitely not a Cochrane review? I suspect it will give a fairly good impression of one. The protocol mentions using the Cochrane database and using Cochrane tools.

    It's not clear from the protocol what the definition of 'CFS' is. The 'condition' mentions a main symptom of post-exertional malaise. But the presence of PEM doesn't seem to have any bearing on whether a trial is included or not.

     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2023
  5. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    The criteria they say they are going to use for CFS are all about fatigue, in other words, although they mention PEM at the beginning of the paragraph, it doesn't appear in the criteria. So a sneaky reintroduction of Oxford criteria?

    And the primary outcome, unsurprisingly is fatigue questionnaires.
     
    Michelle, alktipping, bobbler and 8 others like this.
  6. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Trying to get my head around all the Cochrane reviews for CFS, I think we now know the following:

    Exercise reviews:
    1A.
    Cochrane review Exercise for CFS, published 2014, updated several times, by Larun et al is still standing.

    1B. New review with Hilda's patient advisory group and review team stalled without even publishing a protocol, and promised updates not happening

    Individual data exercise reviews:

    2A. Cochrane review Exercise for CFS Individual data by Larun et al with review team including PACE and other trial authors, started 2014. Protocol withdrawn 2018
    https://www.crd.york.ac.uk/PROSPEROFILES/107473_PROTOCOL_20211031.pdf

    2B. New review not under the Cochrane banner with author team led by Larun no longer including PACE and other trial authors. Protocol based on withdrawn Cochrane protocol above, registered on PROSPERO 2018, updated 2022
    https://www.crd.york.ac.uk/prospero/display_record.php?ID=CRD42018107473
    Reported as ongoing in
    The Lancet New NICE guideline on chronic fatigue syndrome: more ideology than science?
    Signe A. Flottorp, Kjetil Brurberg, Per Fink, Hans Knoop, Vegard B B Wyller

    Also reported as upcoming in the White et al critique of the NICE guideline:
    see Lucibee's post here
    __________________

    CBT reviews

    3A.
    CBT for CFS published 2008. Stiil available with advice that it's out of date and shouldn't be used.
    https://www.cochrane.org/CD001027/DEPRESSN_cognitive-behaviour-therapy-chronic-fatigue-syndrome
    https://www.cochrane.org/CD001027/DEPRESSN_cognitive-behaviour-therapy-chronic-fatigue-syndrome

    3B. No new review plan known?

    Individual data CBT review

    4. CBT for CFS Individual patient data
    Protocol?
    Knoop disclosed he's working on this:
    The Lancet New NICE guideline on chronic fatigue syndrome: more ideology than science?
    Signe A. Flottorp, Kjetil Brurberg, Per Fink, Hans Knoop, Vegard B B Wyller
    quoted here
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2023
  7. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I am! I have the files.
     
  8. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Hutan, alktipping and Trish like this.
  9. JemPD

    JemPD Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    goodness this sounds alarming.
    does this mean there will be yet another drivel laden cochrane review into exercise? I cant make head or tale of it
     
  10. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That's rather exciting!!
     
    MEMarge, alktipping, FMMM1 and 2 others like this.
  11. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Good idea & good luck - thanks for chasing this.

    EDIT - certainly in the UK it's a criminal offence to destroy material i.e. once a request has been made --- probably in Norway too - it's EU legislation. So interesting to see the outcome.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2023
    bobbler, alktipping and Ariel like this.
  12. Ariel

    Ariel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I am a bit lost. Is that what is happening? If so, what?? Can someone explain; I am really sorry. :(
     
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  13. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    As far as I can understand it, there was a plan by BPS proponents to analyse individual patient data in CFS exercise trials, as a Cochrane review. That horrific idea was headed off during the peer review of the protocol (thanks to those involved in that. Am I correct in assuming that this was in the era of David Tovey, the Cochrane Editor who seemed sensible?)

    However, BPS proponents are still keen on the idea and seem to be proceeding towards doing the review, just not under the Cochrane umbrella. Even if it isn't officially a Cochrane review, the recycled protocol suggests that the review will have sufficient 'Cochrane' references in it (to the database, to processes and tools) that a casual reader may have difficulty identifying that.

    I guess the plan may have been to head off any weakened view on the utility of exercise that may have come out of the Cochrane Exercise therapy update (the one Hilda was managing) with this review of individual patient data. So that they could say 'no evidence of harm and, look, it helps some people'.

    If I haven't understood correctly, please correct me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2023
    bobbler, EzzieD, chillier and 12 others like this.
  14. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    That seems to be correct. And it's worse than just another Cochrane type review, in that they seem to be openly using the Oxford criteria, ie only fatigue needed as a symptom, so won't need to downgrade trials which used Oxford criteria for indirectness, and they are using fatigue questionnaires as their primary outcome measure. So they will be able to get the answers they want.

    And there appears to be a parallel review of individual patient data for CBT for CFS, also by BPS supporters including Knoop. No doubt it will also use Oxford criteria and fatigue questionnaire outcomes.

    It's incredibly dishonest to go on calling fatigue alone CFS.
     
  15. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Would you be able to give me a beginning and an end date for a FOI about the correspondence between, presumably, Larun and Cochrane about the IPD review?
     
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  16. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    All I can see at present is my reviewer's report for the IPD on 11th July 2017.
    I think the discussion with Tovey followed on from that and ended up with Soares -Weiser some months later? This must all be documented in a conversation between us somewhere?
     
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  17. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Great - I can use that date as an anchor.
     
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  18. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I cannot find much in my email files. The initial discussion was in Phoenix Rising days. I forget how long it took for the review by Guyana and the subsequent fudge by KSW. David T @dave30th would likely have more information about the timeline - including correspondence with Tovey, which did not come to me directly.
     
  19. Hoopoe

    Hoopoe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes. Would it justify a retraction or some sort of warning? It seems like a form of lying.

    For clarity here's the definition of Oxford CFS criteria:

    a) A syndrome characterized by fatigue as the principal symptom.
    b) A syndrome of definite onset that is not lifelong.
    c) The fatigue is severe, disabling and affects mental and physical functioning.
    d) The symptom of fatigue should have been present for a minimum of 6 months during which it was present for more than 50% of the time.
    e) Other symptoms may be present, particulalry myalgia, mood and sleep disturbance.
    f) Certain patients should be excluded [I don't want to type it all out. The important part is that medical and certain psychiatric disorders conditions causing chronic fatigue are excluded, but depressive and anxiety disorders are not].

    So in summary it's approximately equivalent to severe chronic fatigue and allows people whose main problem might be depressive disorder to be diagnosed as having CFS.

    Given the funny definitional games the PACE authors have played, I would also want to know how the authors define "severe disabling fatigue" exactly.

    I also wonder if "definite onset" would exclude those with a gradual onset.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2023
    EzzieD, Medfeb, Ariel and 6 others like this.
  20. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    After having their entire body or research invalidated several times on this ground alone, this is incredibly foolish and stubborn to the point of being fanatical.

    Looks to me like a shift away from anything about ME/CFS and towards even more generic illness definitions based around single symptoms, under the generic umbrella of either MUS or functional disorders. Or whatever.
     
    bobbler, RedFox, EzzieD and 8 others like this.

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