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Chronic fatigue syndrome: progress and possibilities, 2020, Sandler and Lloyd

Discussion in 'PsychoSocial ME/CFS Research' started by Andy, Apr 6, 2020.

  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member (& Outreach when energy allows)

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    Andrew Lloyd changing his tune? @dave30th
    Paywall, https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.5694/mja2.50553
    Sci hub, https://sci-hub.tw/https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.5694/mja2.50553
     
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  2. Art Vandelay

    Art Vandelay Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm going to be cynical and say that perhaps these two points suggest not:

    The first dot point seems to be pertaining to Lloyd's woo-woo hypothesis that CFS is tied up in neuroplasticity and can be reversed by CBT.

    The second sounds like Lloyd lobbying for taxpayer funds for his pet project of 'educating' GPs that CFS should be very loosely defined (ie, 'fatigue lasting for more than 6 months') and that such patients should be sent to Lloyd's clinic (where else?) for some woo-woo CBT treatment.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  3. Simon M

    Simon M Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Good chance that will happen, possibly two of them (this is the other one, Scandinavian)
     
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  4. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Trying to remain relevant in the realignment? Seems to indicate things are actually moving in the right direction. My guess is the bit about GP education is that the authors want to be involved. It's very effective at spreading woo, after all.

    Most of the points in the summary are either wrong, misleading or oddly framed. Lloyd hasn't changed, just trying to adapt his language and avoid the total exclusion that should be the end of his failed involvement.

    There is no future in this field for the quacks who stifled it. They are today the biggest obstacle to progress. Just retire and keep your woo to yourself, nobody cares. Barely a footnote in history, on the wrong side of it.
    :facepalm: Dude. Come oooooon. How are medical journals so bad at this stuff that they actually publish this seriously? What is even the point of pretending here when it's so easily verifiable? Good grief.
     
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  5. InitialConditions

    InitialConditions Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I genuinely don't understand how changes to the brain can be non-structural. Functional doesn't exist. At the most basic level, everything functional can be reduced to the structural. What they mean is they can't see any structural changes.
     
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  6. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    From the text:

     
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  7. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @rvallee

    Hiya. For the benefit of people who are new to this and might come read the thread how would you write the competing interests response? (I don't know about Lloyd that well)
     
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  8. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It just means one turtle down. That's it. Not satisfied with the BS explanation? There's another BS explanation inside it. That's what explains it. And if you want an explanation for that, well, you can bet your ass there's another BS explanation inside the BS explanation inside the BS explanation.

    Somehow medicine is the only scientific discipline where this logical fallacy is acceptable. It happens to be the one where it does the most harm. But, hey, just like COVD cases in countries that try to suppress, if you never look for it you'll never find it and can claim it doesn't exist. Until reality asserts itself, but it moves slowly. Kinda like a turtle. Just a coincidence. Probably.
     
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  9. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Notable:
    Questionnaires don't measure, they rate, with neither standard units nor a real-world basis for the numbers used. There is no credible basis for this claim, nothing's being measured. Scientists know that, they understand what a measurement is and that they cannot claim to have measured things that are not measurable when in fact they used subjective ratings. Which makes it all so much frustrating, that they understand they are saying nonsense but nevertheless have to say it to justify themselves.

    Interesting first real-world impact of having done the performative update of the Cochrane review where the conclusions are the same even though they should not be. It's still doing harm, still misleads. The straw may be shorter but it's still very graspable.
     
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  10. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The review does not even mention the most promising physiological finding so far, from the 2 day CPET. I suspect that Lloyd does not understand the physiological significance of the ventilatory threshold and it's use as an objective measure of fatigue.
     
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  11. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Or it suits him not to.
     
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  12. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Unfortunately, they have done quite a few studies now which show structural changes but they claim these are changes which make a person liable to conversion disorder. They also use them as proof that to all the things they claim as FND from irritable bowel disease to seizures are the same disorder.

    In science you do studies to disprove your theory by testing how robust it is. You look at alternative explanations and when you find none your idea is confirmed. These so called researchers work the other way round by continually using findings to bolster their theory and ignoring anything that doesn't suit them.

    Lloyd (along with Hickie) was one of the first BPSers who came from nowhere and claimed ME was CFS and they were authorities, ignoring all the expertise and research that had been done before. He is one of the reasons we are so badly treated now and why we are in a worse position than thirty years ago when he became involved. Children were already being held in locked wards in Australia then thanks to him.
     
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  13. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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  14. Cinders66

    Cinders66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It’s like homeopathy, they take what is typically a disabling distressing multi symptom disease and dilute it so much it is hardly recognisable to those suffering from it how they describe it. I would never describe the illness as basically fatigue /PEF, affecting 650 000 in the UK with immune/infection ruled out and brain functional issues ruled in.
     
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  15. Michiel Tack

    Michiel Tack Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thought this was an interesting remark:
     
  16. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I wonder how common the misinterpretation is? I'd expect that most people are aware that prognosis is better for those who have not been ill long. At the same time, I don't think that we have a meaningful figure for the 'entire population of patients with CFS' and given that diagnosis often takes a long time, the recovery figure for those who have been ill for years could be the figure most relevant to patients diagnosed with CFS. The 5% figure itself is a bit of a botch from a range of different populations and recovery criteria.

    They go on to say:

    What is that? Where do those figures come from? What supports the assertion that it is helpful for individual patients to be told this?

    I'd wanted to avoid reading this paper because it was inevitably going to be unbearable, but I got sucked in by looking at the context to that quote.

    Is figure 2 an illustration of how misguided attempts at things like 'supportive care' push patients down a spiral of disability?
     
  17. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Post viral fatigue states were once seen as a thing that happened and lasted up to about 2 years. Glandular fever was also known to have a drawn out resolution as was things like giardia. It was never confused with ME.

    Once they started pushing CFS and making it all about fatigue rather than an abnormal response to exercise they just lumped them together. So we have the ludicrous situation where they can say that most cases of ME resolve because they call diseases which resolve ME. There is no science there.

    My husband had post viral which lasted almost a year after a bad dose of flu. It was before CFS so we never considered that it had any relation to what I had. Basically he could do very little without becoming exhausted. He never had any of the funny symptoms I had with ME.

    It is the differences in diseases which tell you what is going on. If you concentrate on the commonest shared symptom you will get nowhere.
     
  18. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That is my very strong suspicion also ... bordering on certainty.
     
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  19. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    When I was in Australia, I found people (patients and the main ME doctors) making a very sharp distinction between post-viral fatigue syndrome and what they called chronic fatigue syndrome or more often "chronic fatigue" but that would be called ME in the UK. At least, it was a much sharper distinction than I'd heard anyone make in US or UK.

    I don't believe Lloyd has changed. This seems very in line with what he has been saying. The use of "functional" in this context makes that clear. And yes, he has been seeking lots of funding to do e-education of clinicians in providing his version of rehab to patients.
     
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  20. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I read this as de-education. Leaving clinicians more ignorant than when they started.
     
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