Brain Retraining treatment for ME/CFS and Long COVID - discussion thread

Hmm. It's not the easiest to explain in one post. Not because it is that complex, but because it is a process you need to follow over time and its best to build your understanding up in layers. You are fundamentally teaching your brain it is safe and that it doesn't need to generate symptoms any more. Repetition is key because you're building new neural pathways. The very best way of you understanding the process is to get the 6 weeks free of Curable and go through their lessons. They break it down really well. Or read 'The Way Out' (or look at Alan's Insta for bite sized infographics). You don't need to spend a single penny to learn about this stuff, as I've said above. Howard Schubiner also did a very good podcast with Rangan Chatterjee. Ignore the fact many of these resources are on pain; they apply to so many other symptoms. I'm sorry if that is frustrating but having experienced recovery, it's better to learn it a stage at a time and start to play around with some of the exercises (if you want to).
You can't say any specific thing that is done because "it is a process you need to follow over time and its best to build your understanding up in layers"? In other words, am I understanding right that you don't want it known what someone actually does in brain retraining before a person is ready because you think it'd have more benefit to learn it the right way?

It is really strange to me that someone has to take a six week course to even know what the treatment is.

Can you say anything specific at all? Like is it focusing on your breath? Telling yourself "exercise won't hurt me" while you exercise? Yelling "stop" at a piece of paper? "Brain retraining" means next to nothing to me.

I saw the Raeglan person who runs the big Facebook group recommends Primal Trust. I just went through that website and have no idea what they are selling. It's like they tasked someone with making a website for the program but didn't tell that person any details of what the program actually is, other than a few buzz words like "somatic healing" and "vagus nerve toning" so the person just used vague wording that could refer to anything.

The very best way of you understanding the process is to get the 6 weeks free of Curable and go through their lessons. They break it down really well. Or read 'The Way Out' (or look at Alan's Insta for bite sized infographics). You don't need to spend a single penny to learn about this stuff, as I've said above.
I do have to spend six weeks of my time and energy though, and apparently that's just to find out what I'd be doing for months after that. With zero RCTs to back it up, it doesn't seem worth it to me.
 
That would be funny if it didn’t cause great harm.

I used to be a member of Raelan's group, but I left after getting into an argument with one of the moderators. Basically I said that brain retraining is a mixture of science and pseudoscience. That really offended her, as she is a "neuroplasticity coach", even though I didn't mention any programme specifically.

There was also a large exodus of people, including moderators, from Raelan's group after Miguel Bautista became a moderator. (He's the guy who charges $6k a year for his cfs recovery programme). I just had a look and I don't see him listed as a moderator any more, so perhaps they removed him. Anyway, there's just a bit too much drama in that group for my liking.

A better group is if you're interested in looking into brain retratining is: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1343567669676284 (CFS/Long Covid/Post Viral Mindbody Healing). It seems to be calmer and better managed. The only minor irritation is that you're not allowed to mention any symptom, so people get around that rule by using anx**** and similar. I understand the reason for that rule, but don't agree with it.
 
See above. It's really better for you to access some of the free resources where people have worked to break it down. There is a fair bit to cover. I had a quick recovery and it still took me 4-8 weeks to go through enough resources for it to really sink in. The basic message I got in a few days, it isn't that complex but I don't want to sum it up in a paragraph when you're missing an opportunity to give it some deeper thought. I also just don't think I'm very good at summing it up. But it isn't any great mystery given how much free stuff there is out there.
I’m sorry, but this is really not how a discussion works. You can’t just say ‘you’re wrong, you have to read up on it to understand it yourself’.
There is a really detailed theoretical understanding being pieced together based on lots of recent neuroscience/psychology/psychiatry and inmmunology (which the books I linked to go into in detail)
I believe they asked for the evidence, not your or anyone else’s assessment of it. Let’s talk about the facts, not opinion.
The MINIRICO trial is coming, though, at least. Although I see from a post on S4ME that you might have all decided it looks worthless in advance?
The discussion about MINIRICO has been in relation to the theoretical underpinnings of MBRT and the study design. Both have fatal flaws that will render any result meaningless. That is not something anyone has decided as an opinion, it is a direct logical consequence of the choices made by the researchers.
If I had waited for the evidence you are understandably asking for, I'd have been ill all this time. That motivates me to tell other people to look into this work. I just don't want people to suffer.
Do you accept that all BPS-approaches to ME/CFS has caused a great deal of harm to patients? How would you feel if someone decided to try a BPS approach based on your testimony and they became worse as a result? Can you live with having influenced them to try it? Do you accept that you would have caused harm as a consequence?
I posted here because this forum sums up the opposing argument as 'they're all grifters/they think we have false illness beliefs/they think it's all in our heads/they think we are exaggerating or are fixated on minor symptoms'. Nowadays, at least, that is incorrect and very frustrating.
This is a straw man. There are countless threads here where members discuss the scientific merit of the current branding. It is also not completely incorrect. Just because your BPS people didn’t say this anymore, doesn’t mean that others don’t.
 
'Nicely explaining' isn't science. You need to be able to test that your nice explanation has validity.
There is no useful testing in BPS theory.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. There are good and bad BPS studies, just as there are with biomedical ones. I think I've seen more terribly bad biomedical ME/CFS studies than bad BPS ones. Sometimes this forum uses the word BPS as a pejorative, which doesn't really make sense. We have sufficient evidence to say for certain that physiology can affect psychology (e.g. sickness behaviour), and that psychology can affect physiology (e.g. stress hormones which affect the immune system). That's not to say there aren't dubious and unproven theories floating around, and "brain retraining" certainly seems to be a mixture of science and pseudoscience.
 
Lekander is also a prominent member of a peculiarly Scandinavian bullshit group known as the Oslo Consortium and has written on the non-existent concept of Exhaustion Disorder. I have looked through his PubMed publications. It is paradigmatic make-believe.

I don't think it's helpful to be calling it a "bullshit group". We should be discussing the evidence, not making ad hominem attacks.

What makes Exhaustion Disorder any more non-existent than ME/CFS? They are both just diagnoses based on somewhat arbitrary criteria.
 
It seems that the people who sell and promote these brain retraining courses rarely hold a medical degree or have a scientific background.

Phil Parker (lightning process) – osteopath
Miguel Bautista (CFS recovery) – personal trainer
Raelan Agle (Brain Retraining 101) - social work degree
Ashok Gupta (Gupta Program) – economics degree?
Dan Neuffer (CFS Unravelled) - ?
Toby Morrison (CFS Health) - ?

Yeah, most of these people are a bit irritating, with their mix of science and handwaving.

Jan Rothney (author of "Breaking Free") "lectured in Health and Social Care, and been trained in behaviour therapy, counselling skills and stress management", so she does seem to have some proper credentials. Her book does seem to be the most sensible that I have found on brain retraining, and I usually recommend it to anyone who is looking at it. Her book and course are both very reasonably priced. I don't have any financial interest in it, or anything else related to ME/CFS, I just thought it was useful.
 
There are good and bad BPS studies, just as there are with biomedical ones. I think I've seen more terribly bad biomedical ME/CFS studies than bad BPS ones. Sometimes this forum uses the word BPS as a pejorative, which doesn't really make sense.
It depends on how you define BPS. If you define it as biological, psychological and social factors interacting, and that medical treatment of a person should keep in mind that range of factors, then of course it's impossible to argue against it.

But, the psychosomatic crowd don't use BPS in that way; it's basically used as camouflage, a subterfuge.

Can you tell us some of your favourite studies arising from the psychosomatic paradigm applied to ME/CFS?
 
We have sufficient evidence to say for certain that physiology can affect psychology (e.g. sickness behaviour),
Yes, but this doesn’t mean anything more.
and that psychology can affect physiology (e.g. stress hormones which affect the immune system)
Again, this dosn’t mean anything more.
That's not to say there aren't dubious and unproven theories floating around, and "brain retraining" certainly seems to be a mixture of science and pseudoscience.
This is the problem with this approach: it takes vague connections and builds upon then with speculations and claims that their theory is correct. No more proofs neded.
I don't think it's helpful to be calling it a "bullshit group". We should be discussing the evidence, not making ad hominem attacks.
Feel free to join the discussion here:
https://www.s4me.info/threads/chron...23-the-oslo-chronic-fatigue-consortium.35388/
 
It depends on how you define BPS. If you define it as biological, psychological and social factors interacting, and that medical treatment of a person should keep in mind that range of factors, then of course it's impossible to argue against it.

But, the psychosomatic crowd don't use BPS in that way; it's basically used as camouflage, a subterfuge.

No, I think that is an overgeneralisation that seems to happen quite often here. Every "BPS" study posted here seems to get shot down before even looking at it. (Yes, I know that's an overgeneralisation as well, but that's the impression that I get, and it puts a lot of people off joining the forum, including myself).
 
Do you accept that all BPS-approaches to ME/CFS has caused a great deal of harm to patients? How would you feel if someone decided to try a BPS approach based on your testimony and they became worse as a result? Can you live with having influenced them to try it? Do you accept that you would have caused harm as a consequence?

I'm not the OP here, but I'll reply anyway. I think we should assume good faith, i.e. assume that everyone posting in this forum is aware of the problems with inappropriate treatment. Also, it's certainly not true to say that "all BPS-approaches to ME/CFS has caused a great deal of harm to patients". You're using a strawman here. The OP was not advocating anything harmful from what I can tell.
 
There is actually very solid research showing that the ideas that led up to the PACE trial were invalid. (The PACE trial itself, as properly analysed by Wilshire et al. and others.)

Wilshire et al. reanalysed the PACE trial using the original protocol, and (unsurprisingly) got different results. I didn't see anywhere in their study where they showed the the ideas leading up to the PACE trial were invalid, but if I've missed it, let me know.
 
Friendswithme said:
I appreciate that is a big thing to get your head around. It does matter if someone comes away having deteriorated, I'm not saying it doesn't and I hate seeing stories where people have got worse, it's just there is no actual irreversible harm to physical health being done (the same as how someone can have a really hideous painful migraine lasting days and then it goes and they don't have any actual brain damage.

Except when they do —

Migraine and risk of stroke (2020, Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery & Psychiatry)

Migraine and stroke (2017, Stroke and Vascular Neurology)

Migraine and Stroke: Perspectives for Stroke Physicians (2012, Stroke)

Migraine Headache and Ischemic Stroke Risk: An Updated Meta-analysis (2010, The American Journal of Medicine)

Migraine and cardiovascular disease: systematic review and meta-analysis (2009, BMJ)

Probable Migraine With Visual Aura and Risk of Ischemic Stroke (2007, Stroke)

Risk of ischaemic stroke in people with migraine: systematic review and meta-analysis of observational studies (2005, BMJ)

Headache, cerebrovascular symptoms, and stroke (2005, Neurology)
 
I'm not the OP here, but I'll reply anyway. I think we should assume good faith, i.e. assume that everyone posting in this forum is aware of the problems with inappropriate treatment. Also, it's certainly not true to say that "all BPS-approaches to ME/CFS has caused a great deal of harm to patients". You're using a strawman here. The OP was not advocating anything harmful from what I can tell.
A non-falsifiable idea of psychological origins of illness, without definitive proof of those psychological origins, is harmful in itself.

the harmful part is when one of those treatments requires acceptance of the belief that one’s illness is psychological in origin without an objective a priori falsifiability condition.

Without that, it’s infinitely harder for someone, especially those in a desperate position, to be able to say “okay, I gave it an honest go, but clearly it’s not true that my illness is caused by psychological state, so I’m going to stop investing money and time into this.”

even if someone comes to that judgement themselves, the entire structure of those viewpoints is to doubt that assessment by the sick person—to view it as “giving up.” You’re going to be facing “wellness experts” and peers that discourage you from trusting your own judgement. I’ve experienced it personally.

and if someone comes into it with an appropriate amount of skepticism, it’s easy to just say that the person obviously didn’t believe it so of course it didn’t work.

It becomes an ideological position where the positive evidence counts but the negative evidence is not considered valid, because clearly if they tried hard enough they wouldn’t be still sick. You can’t open someone’s head and verify whether they really have the beliefs required by BPS-program-of-the-month, so you can always cast doubt on your negative evidence.

Unless there’s a definitive falsifiability condition, it’s absolutely justified to not take the science seriously. And even if you don’t intend harm, you’re putting others in a catch-22 position just by telling them that they need to believe their illness originates psychologically to cure it.

if they believe you but you’re not actually right, you’re just fucking with the person’s head until they come to their senses and get away from you, which may never happen if you’ve been particularly convincing. I’d hardly call that ‘harmless’

[edited for clarity]
 
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It depends on how you define BPS. If you define it as biological, psychological and social factors interacting, and that medical treatment of a person should keep in mind that range of factors, then of course it's impossible to argue against it.

But, the psychosomatic crowd don't use BPS in that way; it's basically used as camouflage, a subterfuge.

Can you tell us some of your favourite studies arising from the psychosomatic paradigm applied to ME/CFS?

No, I think that is an overgeneralisation that seems to happen quite often here. Every "BPS" study posted here seems to get shot down before even looking at it. (Yes, I know that's an overgeneralisation as well, but that's the impression that I get, and it puts a lot of people off joining the forum, including myself).
Fortunately, it seems that you were not put off from joining the forum after all.

So that we don't take this thread off-topic, perhaps you would like to nominate a "BPS" study or two that you think provide good evidence that brain-training works for ME/CFS, ones that you think got shot down before they were even looked at. We can go to the forum thread for them and discuss the evidence.
 
No, I think that is an overgeneralisation that seems to happen quite often here. Every "BPS" study posted here seems to get shot down before even looking at it. (Yes, I know that's an overgeneralisation as well, but that's the impression that I get, and it puts a lot of people off joining the forum, including myself).
That is patently untrue. Bad science gets shot down on this forum. If you think brain training in the format of Alan Gordon, Howard schubiner has any serious science to it then point me to the studies. They are acting like cult leaders that do great harm at present.
 
If you think brain training in the format of Alan Gordon, Howard schubiner has any serious science to it then point me to the studies.

Here's our thread on a trial on Pain Reprocessing Therapy co-authored by Alan Gordon:
Effect of Pain Reprocessing Therapy vs Placebo and Usual Care for Patients With Chronic Back Pain an RCT, 2021, Asher, Gordon et al

That might be a good one to examine with people like @Friendswithme who think Gordon's ideas are useful and @dundrum who thinks that we dismiss BPS ideas without examining them. It would be good to hear both of your thoughts on that thread.
 
No, I think that is an overgeneralisation that seems to happen quite often here. Every "BPS" study posted here seems to get shot down before even looking at it. (Yes, I know that's an overgeneralisation as well, but that's the impression that I get, and it puts a lot of people off joining the forum, including myself).

I can understand how it might seem to you @dundrum. But this isn't how the forum works.

I am a professor of medicine and had no real contact with psychological medicine and BPS approaches all my career other than being a bit wary of rheumatology colleagues who were enthusiastic about psychology but never seemed to have any evidence for what they said.

I got interested in ME/CFS because I was asked to advise on immunology. I reviewed the research scene to try to get an idea what the condition was about. I attended a conference at Bristol where Peter Denton White made a presentation designed to show how maliciously anti-scientific patients were to criticise his PACE trial. I was shocked not just that a medic should produce such a manipulative and dishonest presentation but that he should have so little regard for patients that he was happy to present with many of them present. The arrogance and stupidity were mind-blowing.

So I have seen ten years looking at the BPS side along with the biomedical side and discussing here. What I see of the biomedical side is mostly poor quality studies done with naive enthusiasm, but also stuff that looks to be driven by commercial gain. We pull that stuff apart all the time. I also see a few good quality studies, many with negative outcomes, but useful ones. In the last five years we have had some very good quality studies that are beginning to produce what may be replicable meaningful positive data.

On the BPS side I just see self-delusion, arrogance, disdain for the patient community and manipulation of the politics in ways that are sometimes probably illegal. The tampering with NICE in 2021 was even more shocking than White. When I say BPS I mean in an ME/CFS context. We are all aware that fear makes you shake and puts your adrenaline up. That is not the issue. The issue is pretending that you have meaningful theories and evidence-based treatments in relation to ME/CFS when it is all scam to make jobs for your friends.

To call this a bullshit crowd may seem extreme but it isn't. As I say, as someone who has worked in medical academia for fifty years I had absolutely no idea just how intellectually dishonest a group of colleagues could be. I didn't start out with this view. I just repeatedly found myself more and more gobsmacked as to how bad the situation was.

The brain retraining idea is completely unfounded. The neurophysiology is entirely bogus, as has become clear to anyone seriously studying the field. Sure, you can find yourself changing your viewpoint but nobody has the faintest idea how that works at a neuronal level. You can spend a million hours searching the literature and you will never actually find a testable mechanistic theory. When I don't work on ME/CFS I work on the physics of the brain so this is very familiar territory.

The bottom line is that there is no bias here. You may think that my perspective is that ME/CFS 'must be physical and not psychological'. But I actually have no commitment to any such point of view. If there was some evidence I would accept a neuropsychiatric basis for at least some cases. What I see very clear evidence of is that the psychological medicine people have not only no idea what they are talking about and no evidence for having valid treatments but have behaved seriously dishonestly. To the extent of trying to get junior researchers dismissed from universities and manipulate public policy. I have been accused of being 'disloyal' to my academic colleagues, but as far as I am concerned my only loyalty was ever to the patients. The idea that it should be to my colleagues pretty much summed up their way of thinking to me.

To take the idea of brain retraining seriously people here need to hear some actual testable theory and to have an account of the methodology that is supposed to deliver the result. We know there are no valid trials but we don't even see any evidence of anything testable. If the people who write popular books had any science behind them we would see the citations of the original research on PubMed. There is nothing I can find of relevance. It may be a shock to find a scam of these proportions right on one's doorstep but it may be easy to forget just how recently all medicine was a scam. maybe it is just that the psychologists have never moved on.
 
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