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Where is the Evidence for Evidence-Based Therapy?

Discussion in 'Health News and Research unrelated to ME/CFS' started by Sly Saint, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Challenging the Cognitive Behavioural Therapies: The Overselling of CBT's Evidence Base
    Jonathan Shedler - Where is the Evidence for Evidence-Based Therapy?
    23 Jan 2015
    very interesting talk; many parallels with PACE.

    shows that CBT in fact has very little evidence to support it for any condition and it's rise in 'popularity' largely due to misquoting and misrepresenting the results.

    (His argument is similar to Mike Scott of cbt watch; but nevertheless the evidence he presents that exposes how CBT was, and continues to be, falsely promoted as an 'evidence-based' treatment relates to all the problems with that field of research in general)


    eta: Other material of interest

    Empirically supported psychological interventions: controversies and evidence.

    Chambless DL1, Ollendick TH. 2001

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11148322

    https://sci-hub.tw/10.1146/annurev.psych.52.1.685




    eta3:



    eta4: see Shedlers article on same title
    https://jonathanshedler.com/wp-cont...s-the-evidence-for-evidence-based-therapy.pdf
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
  2. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I have not listened to the whole talk but my impression is that this guy is even worse than the people he is criticising.

    His argument is that 'manualised' treatments, i.e. treatments that can be done according to an agreed written protocol, are not as good as personalised psychodynamic therapy, which is what he sells to people.

    He is probably right to say that the evidence for the manualised treatments is poor, although he does not seem to aware of all the problems we have discussed here. He says the benefits are only for some and transient. It seems to me more likely from looking at trials like PACE that there is actually no benefit at all.

    But his alternative is to go on using personalised therapies which like homeopathy are totally lacking in evidence because there is no protocol to follow to test them. He is using the argument I have heard from a psychotherapist who treats ME 'Oh but we do not treat people like in trials like PACE, we tailor the treatment to each person'. So how does anybody know how to do that? and How do you know if the tailoring makes any difference if you have never tried tailoring differently?

    In other words the talk shows not just that CBT is poorly evidence based but that traditional psychotherapy is even worse on the same score. He has let the cat completely out of the bag. Psychotherapists are complete phoneys it seems. Moreover, they do not understand what it is to be a phoney.
     
  3. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    He says they should be doing traditional psychodynamic therapy which I didn’t know anything about so I googled and it appears to be Freudian stuff about maladaptive behaviour stemming from childhood. Not sure how that’s an improvement on CBT..........
     
  4. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It is much worse.

    This is what Simon Wessely was worried about when he emailed me years back - manual-based therapy doing proper psychodynamic therapists out of a job. That might at least be a positive for CBT.
     
  5. Sean

    Sean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I just love watching turf wars between competing versions of nonsense. :facepalm:
     
  6. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Mental health: transforming research and treatments

    https://wellcome.ac.uk/what-we-do/our-work/mental-health-transforming-research-and-treatments

    maybe they should start by looking more closely at the research that shows the therapies are effective(?)
     
    Invisible Woman, Sean and Trish like this.
  7. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  8. Sean

    Sean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    If these psychs were really serious about reducing mental illness (particularly depression and anxiety) they would be focusing primarily on advocating for the reduction in the socio-economic stressors in society, not on playing games with individuals' inevitably limited capacity to respond to those stressors.

    Instead they are doing the opposite, and actively allowing their profession and science to be abused to cover up these underlying external causes, and misdirect blame and responsibility onto the victims.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
  9. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  10. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Sounds like minor tweaking and all is well.
     
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