1. Less than a week to support David Tuller's work. To donate click here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, the 'News in Brief' for the week beginning 19th October 2020 is here.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Welcome! To read the Core Purpose and Values of our forum, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

UK: The Yellow Card Scheme has been confirmed as the route to report 'adverse incidents' from GET and CBT (or has it?)

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Andy, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member & Outreach

    Messages:
    10,813
    Likes Received:
    78,154
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    I decided to make a new thread from this post in the UK House of Lords/ House of Commons Questions thread.

    The Countess Of Mar asked the following question:
    Lord O'Shaughnessy answered:
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/...nts/written-question/Lords/2018-06-20/HL8829/

    ME Research have posted about this question, http://www.meresearch.org.uk/news/cbt-get-parliamentary-question/, providing a bit of background information about the Yellow Card Scheme.

    Link to the Yellow Card Scheme website, https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/

    Given that this now gives a confirmed route to report incidents with GET, CBT and any other treatment, should the patient community make a push for (genuine) reports to be made?
     
  2. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,342
    Likes Received:
    39,268
    Location:
    UK West Midlands
    absolutely

    the form isnt properly set up to do it but if people try to use it and contact MHRA with questions/complaints they will have to adapt it.

    the pressure has forced this change - it is important that the scheme is now used for reports about GET/CBT otherwise it will become another way of just bouncing the issue of harm saying "well if people have incidents they can report them and we arent getting reports"
     
    Woolie, MSEsperanza, Melanie and 14 others like this.
  3. Andy

    Andy Committee Member & Outreach

    Messages:
    10,813
    Likes Received:
    78,154
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    I've just sent a message on the Yellow Card Scheme website saying
    Knowing how large firms and national/local government can be, it wouldn't surprise me if any report that didn't use the right category was just ignored, so it would be good if I could get confirmation direct from them.
     
    Simbindi, andypants, Woolie and 23 others like this.
  4. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    7,590
    Likes Received:
    78,002
    Is there a clearer indication that the scheme actually applies to therapist-delivered treatments elsewhere in the text? The reply mentions 'products used in psychological treatments. That to me sounds like drugs used during the use of treatment for psychological conditions and perhaps treatments involving a therapist but it is not very clear what 'product' means here.

    Yellow cards are mostly ignored anyway but at least they may be lying around if someone raises a question about an adverse event needing auditing.

    I think it would be very helpful if this does indeed mean you ca do a yellow card for CBT or GET. It may set an important precedent for issues on a much larger scale.
     
  5. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,222
    Likes Received:
    15,842
    I took it to mean that you should use the 'products' category instead, as there isn't one for behavioural treatments. I may have misunderstood.
     
  6. Keela Too

    Keela Too Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    7,962
    Location:
    Sally Burch - Northern Ireland
  7. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,292
    Likes Received:
    20,905
    Location:
    UK
  8. Keela Too

    Keela Too Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    7,962
    Location:
    Sally Burch - Northern Ireland
    Sbag, Dolphin, MSEsperanza and 9 others like this.
  9. Andy

    Andy Committee Member & Outreach

    Messages:
    10,813
    Likes Received:
    78,154
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    See my post up-thread where I ask for confirmation on which category to use for CBT and GET.
     
  10. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    7,590
    Likes Received:
    78,002
    I think we may need a blue card system.
     
  11. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    7,590
    Likes Received:
    78,002
    More seriously, it looks to me as if O'Shaughnessy didn't know what he was taking about. Somebody needs to ask what the mechanism is for reporting harms from therapies if it is NOT yellow card.
     
    Simbindi, Dolphin, Melanie and 4 others like this.
  12. Keela Too

    Keela Too Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    7,962
    Location:
    Sally Burch - Northern Ireland
    Blue cardy?
     
    Woolie, Wonko, Melanie and 8 others like this.
  13. Keela Too

    Keela Too Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    7,962
    Location:
    Sally Burch - Northern Ireland
    rvallee, Dolphin, Wonko and 8 others like this.
  14. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,714
    Likes Received:
    11,083
    Can people from abroad use this, too? (I guess not.)
     
  15. Keela Too

    Keela Too Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    7,962
    Location:
    Sally Burch - Northern Ireland
    No - I understand it to be UK specific
     
    rvallee, Dolphin, Wonko and 5 others like this.
  16. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,587
    Likes Received:
    130,437
    Location:
    UK
    Maybe the person writing the answer misunderstood the question and assumed that Graded Exercise Therapy involved using equipment like exercise bikes or treadmills.
     
  17. Keela Too

    Keela Too Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    7,962
    Location:
    Sally Burch - Northern Ireland
    Whatever way you look at it, the answers given to Jim Shannon and the Countess of Mar are contradictory. I have put screen shots in my blog post (http://sallyjustme.blogspot.com/2018/07/yellow-card-confusion.html) and also the question I asked on the site. It follows on from my Feb post about Yellow Cards.

    Basically it's all as clear as mud. And if it's difficult or confusing to report harms, then GPs are unlikely to do so. Which means basically they are not checking for harms in any serious way. That is a problem, considering the volume of harm reports in patient surveys, forums and social media.

    Still looks to me like they don't want to know about the harm that may be caused!
     
    Simbindi, andypants, Woolie and 13 others like this.
  18. MeSci

    MeSci Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,334
    Likes Received:
    14,253
    Location:
    Cornwall, UK
    It seems that the difference is whether the 'therapies' use 'products':

    "cognitive behaviour therapy and graded exercise therapy are both non-pharmaceutical or medical device treatments"

    and

    "The Yellow Card Scheme includes a facility to report suspected adverse incidents associated with products used in psychological treatments."
     
    Simbindi, Wonko, Inara and 3 others like this.
  19. SallyC

    SallyC Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    We have a similar parallel 'yellow' adverse reactions reporting system in veterinary medicine but my understanding of it is that it is meant to hold the manufacturers of pharmaceuticals and products to account.

    I hope this system can be used to report harms because it feels like it could be a game changer.
     
  20. Keela Too

    Keela Too Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    7,962
    Location:
    Sally Burch - Northern Ireland
    And this could then be used to nullify any "harms" reported via the system. I think you are right. CBT/GET harms can still not be reported via the Yellow Card system.

    As @Jonathan Edwards says:
     
    Simbindi, Dolphin, Wonko and 7 others like this.

Share This Page