UK:ME Association funds research for a new clinical assessment toolkit in NHS ME/CFS specialist services, 2023

There is no way people with MS or cancer are being asked this in clinics

Is there any way we can find out?

Maybe contact the MS society & cancer research UK & show them this and ask "do you get asked this stuff?"

Could we then ask MEA why they / clinics are asking pwme?

Not that they are listening, as the reponse to the excellent S4ME letter showed.

MEA also say they are working with clinics to implement the NICE guidelines, which is a worry, given they don't seem to understand the problems with this "toolkit" and seem to want to avoid talking to patients about clinics too.

I am so frustrated by this. What are MEA thinking?!
 
This is the third questionnaire- how many are there in total?
It would be worth adding them all together to get an estimate of “time” and also “effort” to complete these. How long is the clinic visit going to be, even I, who is quite quick on a good day, would need near half an hour just for forms….

I’d be happy to do that as an experiment, wearing my visible and collecting data.

Also Visible are looking to imminently publish some data, HRV not acting as was thought. Another nail in the BPS coffin. Don’t get too despondent!
 

But none of them are under the GMC?

I mean technically the clinics should be staffed by a non-psych clinician, but that's another conversation, and there is no sensible way if you had that these types of silly things should be being used.

SO why the GMC? Are they trying to influence them and their guidelines?
 
But none of them are under the GMC?

I mean technically the clinics should be staffed by a non-psych clinician, but that's another conversation, and there is no sensible way if you had that these types of silly things should be being used.

SO why the GMC? Are they trying to influence them and their guidelines?
I don’t know who regulates Tyson or Dr Gladwell. Could be HCPC, depends what regulated title they use.
 
I think, apart from the questionnaire being far too long, the choice of responses ambiguous and various other problems, the main problem is it doesn't include anything related to PEM, symptoms and the cumulative effects of exertions.[/QUOTE]

It seems clear from the options (and the 'PEM survey' not even being PEM, and we know that'll get dropped) and putting 'avoid' as an option on this and such a list of other things on the 'adapt, don't do other things etc' that it is enticing people to tick behavioural explanations.

It simply is not a questionnaire for ME/CFS


SO the authors should be required to explaining what it actually is. And how the disease works that they really think this is apparently for. Goodness knows what they think they are measuring it's nonsense.

Just a list no healthy person would wade through of 98 randomly chosen activities they require anyone who can't do them without harm to themselves to say they 'avoid'. or 'can't'. Or according to their instruction if it is a particularly good day they've not had for a month then tick 'can'.. because what 3 weeks later they will get an email with the same list.. why?

How have MEA been conned into this method which clearly looks like someone believing they are mathematical demonstrating 'something'

What exactly does 'avoid' count as in this circumstance if it is a SF-36 replacement (I doubt it given it's a PROM and it was the physical function measure that particularly failed to show any significance for Crawley et al 2013 paper inspiring them to suggest the measures needed to change)

Sadly what I can see from anything this produces is that due to being a subjective measure noone is checking and people could feel social pressure, or feel coerced by perceived threats into changing their answers upwards for that this could end up employ behavioural psychology to magic the impression of improvement just from people who want to escape treatment they are finding harmful or not useful but need to not be given a black mark of 'not motivated enough to complete', or the need to please etc

I do not see how using this fixes that fundamental issue?
 
Presumably they would have been vetted in order that they wouldn't indulge in "hysterical projection, catastrophising, conspiracy theories, overt hostility and insults", or constructive criticism as most people call it.

If the ME Association secretly funded these people just as one final 'let's give them a go in good faith to get the proof they can't/won't change' then they've played a blinder.

I just can't get over the threatening coercive behaviour pretty much warning anyone 'only the right feedback' being so heavily demonstrated in plain sight
 
As you know, the S4ME committee wrote to the MEA about our concerns about this project and received a short response from the chair of trustees saying forum posts are being read, and he agrees with some of our points and disagrees with others, but reiterating full support for the team and project and repeating claims of how useful it will be.
The letters can be read here

You will not be surprised that I am not satisfied with that response, which basically boils down to 'leave it to the experts'. I have been trying when my energy allowed since then to draft another possible letter from the committee. This will now need to be re-drafted in the light of our concerns about this latest questionnaire. I have no idea when or if any of the committee will have the energy to do that work.

Since the draft letter is, so far, mostly my work, rather than my efforts going to waste, I am taking the liberty of posting a copy of the draft here for discussion, and so @sarahtyson and Peter Gladwell can read our requests and, I hope respond to them.

Draft letter:
Dear Sarah Tyson, Pete Gladwell and team, and MEA trustees,

We are writing to both the MEA Trustees as funders of the Clinical Toolkit project, and to the research team to ask for clarification of how this project is expected to achieve its stated aims. We start with a brief explanation of some of our concerns, and follow with a series of requests and questions.

We contend that it is incumbent on funders and researchers to explain fully the way in which the data collected from volunteer patients is intended to be interpreted and applied to patient care and service provision before asking them to participate in such data collection. Assurances that the toolkit and PROMs will be beneficial are not sufficient, particularly in the context of ME/CFS where PROMs have been used to validate harmful treatments and beliefs about pwME.

Having carefully read Neil Riley's letter (4 April 2024), the original MEA article about the project (8 May 2023) and Sarah Tyson's posts on the S4ME forum, we remain unsure about the aims of this project, reported initially as:

"The main outcome from this research will be a clinical toolkit and a greater understanding of patient difficulties, their needs, and satisfaction with service provision, along with a better appreciation of the assessment challenges that clinicians working in specialist services face and how they might be overcome.

Application of the toolkit will be of benefit to patients, to clinicians who are tasked with providing tailored care and support, and to healthcare commissioners who want to review and improve existing service provision – or create new services – that adopts the NICE Guideline recommendations."

This explanation suggests, and Sarah Tyson has stated in forum posts, that the project is not intended to produce outcome measures for use in clinical trials of new treatments. Rather that the focus is on producing materials that will facilitate implementation of the 2021 NICE guideline by improving patient care and services.

It seems that, with this project's focus on PROMs rather than other information gathering and monitoring tools, the aim is to produce more ME/CFS specific subjective outcome measures to directly replace the SF-36 PF and CFQ measures commonly used by the past GET/CBT clinics to claim effectiveness of short courses of rehabilitation style 'treatments'.

We are concerned that the new PROMs are intended to be used to provide
quantitative data to be used to support the continuation of rehabilitation style therapist led clinical services that only provide short term 'treatment' for mild and moderate pwME, rather than their replacement with NICE compliant doctor led diagnostic and care services with provision for all severity levels.

Given that there is no effective treatment for ME/CFS, and the NICE guideline recommends providing pwME with tools, knowledge and support for symptom contingent self management of exertion, any changes on subjective outcome measures (PROMs) relating to symptoms and activity levels will be a refection of natural fluctuations and lifestyle changes, not a measure of the usefulness of the clinic's input. They should therefore not be used as a gauge of service effectiveness.

The MEA article also states that:

"The toolkit will address the assessment needs and research recommendations (for a core outcomes database) identified in the 2021 NICE Clinical Guideline on ME/CFS. It will be produced following consultation with patients and with clinicians to ensure the toolkit can record accurate and reliable data. Then it will be made available to the network of services in England and in Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, when new specialist services are commissioned."

It seems that the leaders of this project have interpreted the need for a core outcome database to mean that quantitative data derived from subjective PROMs will answer this need in future treatment trials and sevice evaluation. This assumption is patently false in the case of unblinded trials, where outcome measures need to be objective.

This has led to confusion about the aims of the project and how it is expected those aims can be fulfllled by the resources, including PROMs, being developed.

Requests and questions:

1. Research protocol and ethics approval

Please could you provide a copy of the protocol and/or detailed funding application that spells out just how the materials being developed are expected to achieve the stated aims. We would like to understand how the MEA came to fund this project, and on what basis ethics approval was given.

2. Research preparation

The MEA article says:
"The researchers undertook extensive work in preparation of the grant application. Using recent national guidance, they established the concepts to be measured and completed scoping reviews to identify any existing measurement tools. While these revealed that nothing suitable currently existed for ME/CFS several were found that could be developed."

Please could you provide the documentation that supports this.

The only information we found was from a very superficial study with a cohort of new patients able to attend a clinic, that is, at the highest functional level of ME/CFS.
Evaluating the ability of patient reported outcome measures to represent the functional limitation of people living with ME/CFS, 2023, Jones, Gladwell
Discussed on the forum here
And another equally superficial study of the Chalder Fatigue Questionnaire:
Exploring the content validity of the Chalder Fatigue Scale using cognitive interviewing in an ME/CFS population
Discussed on the forum here
This did not address the multiple problems with CFQ identified by the S4ME paper, some of which such as arbitrary weighting and ceiling effects are relevant for this project.
Submission to the public review on common data elements for ME/CFS: Problems with the Chalder Fatigue Questionnaire

We assume from the quoted statement that there is some other documentation seen by the MEA that provides a more in depth analysis of "concepts to be measured", and spelling out how new materiais are expected to achieve a way of "measuring concepts" in a clinically useful way for patients of all severity levels, that avoid the multiple failings of subjective measures, and moreover that will provide information for planning and evaluating NHS specialist services.

3. Subjective versus objective monitoring tools and outcome measures

What is the rationale for opting to develop solely subjective questionnaire based outcome measures (PROMs) despite the well know problems of their use in unblinded trials and that have been used in service evaluation to justify use of harmful CBT/GET? What measures are being taken to ensure the PROMs being developed will provide valid evidence of clinically significant change that is not subject to the same subjective biases as all other PROMs (Calling PROMs gold standard and objective does not make them so).

Given the history of refusal to use objective outcome measures that do not support the short term spurious positive outcomes on subjective PROMs by CBT/GET researchers and clinics, it is particularly hard to accept the promotion of PROMs to the exclusion of objective measures in this project.

What is the rationale for rejection of objective measures such as continuous monitoring with wearables for activity, time upright, HR and HRV; cognitive testing; hand grip strength and fatiguability; 2 day CPET and other exercise challenges as monitoring tools for assisting with clinical care and as outcome measures for clinical trials?

What is the rationale for rejection of continuous monitoring using wearables and daily symptom and activity monitoring using apps. to assist pwME with activity management if they wish to use them, and to help with clinical reviews by providing a record of activity and symptoms patterns that does not rely on memory over long periods?

4. "Gold standard objective measures"

The MEA article says:
"The toolkit will address the assessment needs and research recommendations (for a core outcomes database) identified in the 2021 NICE Clinical Guideline on ME/CFS. It will be produced following consultation with patients and with clinicians to ensure the toolkit can record accurate and reliable data."

Sarah Tyson claimed in forum posts that the PROMs being developed with provide "gold standard objective data".

It is therefore clear that the PROMs are not intended solely as records of symptoms and activity levels as a basis for clinical review, but are also intended to provide numerical scores that can be used as outcome measures for service evaluation and clinical trials. We contend that in asking patients to give informed consent to participating in testing the PROMs, they should be informed of how the numbers derived will be calculated and interpreted, so they can give feedback on whether the scores have valid clinical meaning.

Please could you, for both the already developed PROMs and ones still in development, provide the intended algorithm for turning the answers to the questionnaires into numerical scores, and the rationale supporting the validity of such algoritms in each case. This will include what exactly is being 'measured', is it intended to be a linear scale, what change is deemed clinically significant, how will that be determined? If and algorithm is additive, how will it cope with possibly giving false impression of overall improvement, when minor improvements in some less troublesome aspects numerically outweight major detrioration in a single aspect, and when apparent improvement in symptom severity is a result of lifestyle changes, not of improvement in the underlying disease?

Can you provide an assurance that answers to questionnaires will not be spuriously consolidated to produce global measures of improvement, enabling multiple minor subjective improvements to outweigh real changes in function and so give a false impression of overall clinically significant improvement?

5. Problems with PASS and the replacement of PEM with 'symptoms after exertion'.

What is the rationale for removing the term PEM from the PROMs and replacing it with the more general and not disease specific 'symptoms after exertion'? This is a major concern given the high risk of ME/CFS being merged into generic FND, MUS etc. and resulting inappropriate treatment.

Following on from our detailed review of the PASS questionnaire, as spelled out in our letter of 2nd April 2024, how are all of our concerns being addressed? Is the PASS PROM being redesigned from scratch as a much shorter questionnaire and using an accurate description of PEM as delayed and lasting more than 24 hours? Is it being considered that PASS be scrapped, and PEM be included instead, with a definition, in the symptom questionnaire, or that its occurence be assessed more accurately by longitudinal monitoring of symptoms and exertion using technology, as we have suggested?

6 The role of PROMs in clinical care

Please could you provide the rationale for using lengthy PROMs to assist with clinical care rather than a much simpler, shorter one page tick box list of symptoms and common activities of daily living, with space for the pwME to note particular concerns; the MEA severity scale; and, where the pwME chooses to use them, summary scores or graphs from continuous monitoring using wearables, apps or paper diaries.

Have pwME been asked which approach they would prefer? Have GP's or specialist doctors been asked which would be most useful to help them monitor pwME in their care? Are you aware that BACME already has a document for clinical use that collects information about symptoms and functional limitations? Have pwME been invited to critique that document? Is this research intended to replace that document or add to it?

We note that the self congratulatory MEA update of 9th April, quotes only positive feedback from pwME, largely praising the PROMs on the basis of learning something new. This information would be better provide in documents the pwME can keep, and does not justify the use of PROMs. What is the rationale for providing patient eduction via PROMs rather than leaflets and web based resources that list symptoms, and describe PEM clearly, including possible triggers; a brief guide to pacing; and lists of sources of help and futher information?

5. Designing clinical services and service evaluation

Please could you respond to the concern that this approach using PROMs is designed to justify the continuation of therapist run clinics running short courses of 'treatment' with a behavioural and 'rehabilitation' focus. The NICE guideline does not support such a model. Rather it supports doctor led clinics with a focus on symptomatic treatments; provision of resources that enable supported self monitoring, rather than therapist led 'rehabilitation'; and more focus on the provision of accessible and appropriate medical and care support for the most severely affected, including appropriate home and hospital care.

Please could you also spell out exactly how it is envisaged the PROMs and toolkit will be used in clinics. Which specialism will be expected to administer them, what action is expected to be taken based on the results, at what stage in the diagnostic and monitoring of patients they will be repeated, how they will be expected to impact patient care, and how they will be used for service evaluation? How will the outcomes of the project be expected to contribute to changes and new provision of services?

7. Implementation by the NHS

In what way is it envisaged the PROMs and toolkit will fit in the as yet unpublished government delivery plan for ME/CFS, and the NHS training modules and other plans we have yet to see? We are concerned that it could be used to persuade funding bodies to fund a continuation of therapist led clinics providing short rehabilitation courses for the milder patients, instead of doctor led care with NICE compliant provision for all severity levels.
____________________

Comment

At present we cannot see how anything produced in this project will provide better information for patients, clinicians, or service providers than the already existing NICE guideline, a simple symtom, PEM and ADL list with tick boxes, the MEA severity scale, and the development of resources to help pwME manage their activity levels, including in the form of leaflets and web resources that explain symptoms, PEM, activity management, and provision and guidance on use of wearables, apps, diaries etc.

In the current situation where there is not effective treatment, service evaluation should not be based on numerical scores based on subjective PROMs. that will merely reflect natural fluctuations and therapist influence. It should be based on whether there is NICE compliant provision of diagnosis, patient education and support, and provision of appropriate services for all severity levels, and whether patients are able to access these services when needed.

We contend it is not ethical or clinically valid to ask pwME to test PROMs, as in this project, without providing the full picture of how the data will be used, including algorithms, clinically significant cut off points, which specialism will administer it, how they will interpret the data and for what purpose, and inviting pwME to express a view on alternative resources and outcome measures such as those we have suggested.
_________________

We assume the research team will be wiliing and able to provide the information we have requested and to make it public on both the MEA website and the S4ME forum as a sign of ongoing commitment to patient collaboration and better outcomes of the project. Until pwME fully understand how the aims of the project are intended to be realised, pwME are being asked to participate in the research without fully informed consent.

We hope this letter and our requests will be received and responded to in the spirit intended, of open and collaborative discussion with a view to improving the outcomes of this project for the benefit of pwME. We continue to keep the door open to Sarah Tyson, Pete Gladwell, MEA trustees and everyone working on and participating in this project, to join our members in constructive discussion, despite past slurs on our members. We look to you all to act professionally for the good of pwME.

Thank you.

Trish Davis....
 
As you know, the S4ME committee wrote to the MEA about our concerns about this project and received a short response from the chair of trustees saying forum posts are being read, and he agrees with some of our points and disagrees with others, but reiterating full support for the team and project and repeating claims of how useful it will be.
The letters can be read here

You will not be surprised that I am not satisfied with that response, which basically boils down to 'leave it to the experts'. I have been trying when my energy allowed since then to draft another possible letter from the committee. This will now need to be re-drafted in the light of our concerns about this latest questionnaire. I have no idea when or if any of the committee will have the energy to do that work.

Since the draft letter is, so far, mostly my work, rather than my efforts going to waste, I am taking the liberty of posting a copy of the draft here for discussion, and so @sarahtyson and Peter Gladwell can read our requests and, I hope respond to them.

Draft letter:
Excellent Trish. I’d like to review some items before making suggestions if that’s ok, will maybe take a few days. What I have in mind is to strengthen your points, not criticisms!
 
Feel free, the draft letter is there for anyone to agree, disagree, make suggestions etc. If the committee does send another letter, I expect we will try to remove repetitions, consider any comments anyone makes on this thread, and add a section on the latest questionnaire when more of our members have had time to try it and comment on it.

In the meantime consider it a personal letter from me to the research team.
 
That one of the designers of the toolkit thought that PEM could last for a few minutes strongly suggests they really don't know what PEM is.
I think the issue at the heart of all this, or one of them, is that between @sarahtyson & most of us here, there is a fundamental disagreement over what PEM actually means/is, because it was Sarah herself that said the bit about it lasting a few mins (& IIRC that being directly after an activity).

And she is a person with both an Me/CFS dx herself and is a carer for someone with ME/CFS too.

I'm not saying that we own the term & get to dictate what it is, I'm simply saying what we have all said before = that people are clearly meaning different things when they use the term 'PEM'/'PESE', & that that difference in meaning is a major problem in all areas of discourse. Community, public awareness, Dr-patient, researcher-subject etc etc

I dont know what the answer is TBH i just feel a sense of despair over the whole thing.

I'm not up to looking at the questionanaire, but does it really give 'avoid' an activity as an option as an answer?

Edit: forgive me if tha answer to that question has already been made clear in previous posts, i am too ill to read them all
 
Last edited:
I haven't seen all the questions, but with so many you'd think they'd be able to have the granuality needed to capture pwME's lives, but it's all so broadbrush. How about - standing - how long before you struggle - less than 2 mins - 5-10 - over 15 mins?

Part-time work - that could be 20 hours per week or 4. That's a huge difference.

The various activities for 30 mins, but being able to manage 25 mins is a lot different from 3 mins.

(Struggling, so this is very badly written.)
For DWP, work, I believe is is 1 hour per week
 
I think the issue at the heart of all this, or one of them, is that between @sarahtyson & most of us here, there is a fundamental disagreement over what PEM actually means/is, because it was Sarah herself that said the bit about it lasting a few mins (& IIRC that being directly after an activity).

And she is a person with both an Me/CFS dx herself and is a carer for someone with ME/CFS too.

I'm not saying that we own the term & get to dictate what it is, I'm simply saying what we have all said before = that people are clearly meaning different things when they use the term 'PEM'/'PESE', & that that difference in meaning is a major problem in all areas of discourse. Community, public awareness, Dr-patient, researcher-subject etc etc

I dont know what the answer is TBH i just feel a sense of despair over the whole thing.

I'm not up to looking at the questionanaire, but does it really give 'avoid' an activity as an option as an answer?

Edit: forgive me if tha answer to that question has already been made clear in previous posts, i am too ill to read them all
More of an insight was that she had no idea what fatigability is. Huge red flag
 
I think the issue at the heart of all this, or one of them, is that between @sarahtyson & most of us here, there is a fundamental disagreement over what PEM actually means/is, because it was Sarah herself that said the bit about it lasting a few mins (& IIRC that being directly after an activity).

And she is a person with both an Me/CFS dx herself and is a carer for someone with ME/CFS too.

I'm not saying that we own the term & get to dictate what it is, I'm simply saying what we have all said before = that people are clearly meaning different things when they use the term 'PEM'/'PESE', & that that difference in meaning is a major problem in all areas of discourse. Community, public awareness, Dr-patient, researcher-subject etc etc

I dont know what the answer is TBH i just feel a sense of despair over the whole thing.

Given that this project is supposed to be providing resources for implementing the NICE guideline, surely they should be using terms as defined by NICE in the guideline:
https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng206/chapter/recommendations#post-exertional-malaise

Post-exertional malaise
The worsening of symptoms that can follow minimal cognitive, physical, emotional or social activity, or activity that could previously be tolerated. Symptoms can typically worsen 12 to 48 hours after activity and last for days or even weeks, sometimes leading to a relapse. Post-exertional malaise may also be referred to as post-exertional symptom exacerbation.

NICE also defines these related terms:
Flare-up
A worsening of symptoms, more than would be accounted for by normal day-to-day variation, that affects the person's ability to perform their usual activities. Flare‑ups may occur spontaneously or be triggered by another illness, overexertion or other triggers. Flare‑ups usually occur as part of post-exertional malaise but it is possible for other symptoms, such as pain, to flare-up without post-exertional malaise. The worsening of symptoms is transient and flare‑ups typically resolve after a few days, either spontaneously or in response to temporary changes in energy management or a change in treatment. A relapse lasts longer than a flare‑up.

Relapse
A sustained and marked exacerbation of symptoms lasting longer than a flare‑up and needing a substantial and sustained adjustment to the person's energy management. It may not be clear in the early stages of a symptom exacerbation whether it is a flare‑up or a relapse. Relapses can lead to a long-term reduction in the person's energy limits.

I have no idea why the project team decided to ditch all these NICE defined terms in favour of the much less clear and vague 'symptoms after exertion'.

Reminding myself of other terms in the glossary, there is also this one, which emphasises the point about cumulative effect of all exertion that we have tried to explain to the researchers makes taking exertions separately pretty meaningless:
Activity
Any effort that uses energy, which includes cognitive, emotional and social activity as well as physical activity. Different activities combine and interact to cause a cumulative impact for the person.
___________

I'm not up to looking at the questionanaire, but does it really give 'avoid' an activity as an option as an answer?
You are right, and it's a very good point. No energy tonight to expand on this.
 
You are right, and it's a very good point. No energy tonight to expand on this.
i was right about what? I was just asking if the questionnaire does actually use that term ' avoid' before i commented on the use of it, i'd seen the word in a couple of posts while skimming the thread in my bleary eyed goofy/foggy state so i wanted to check i'd understood.

Given that this project is supposed to be providing resources for implementing the NICE guideline, surely they should be using terms as defined by NICE in the guideline:
you are so right, & very helpful reminender of how theyve now been officlially difined, for better or worse
 
Back
Top Bottom