Resources for help getting food during quarantine and safe handling of food

[Subtropical Island]

UV (and fresh air) definitely helps general disinfection, but how much it does for this particular virus is the question.

Exactly.
I’m very conscious that bacteria are quite different to viruses.
(My child brain remembers it as viruses are like code-carrying drones whereas bacteria are small life forms - easier to kill a life form with extremes of temperature etc ...but bacteria can reproduce and viruses need a host to replicate). And then there are things like fungi too. Microorganisms are many and varied.

"
All this means that using sunlight to disinfect surfaces is extremely problematic.

First of all, no one knows how long it takes to deactivate Covid-19 with sunlight, or what strength is needed. And even if they did, the amount of UV in sunlight varies depending on the time of day, the weather, the season, and where in the world you live – especially which latitude – so this wouldn’t be a reliable way to kill the virus. "

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200327-can-you-kill-coronavirus-with-uv-light

From your quote (good for a public statement but not quite what I was looking for)
and the fact that it’s just the BBC (media are often bad at this)
I was at first reluctant to read your link but
(thank you for it and apologies for doubting you)
these parts are very good:

There is also a third type: UVC. This relatively obscure part of the spectrum consists of a shorter, more energetic wavelength of light. It is particularly good at destroying genetic material – whether in humans or viral particles. Luckily, most of us are unlikely to have ever encountered any. That’s because it’s filtered out by ozone in the atmosphere long before it reaches our fragile skin.

(bold is mine)

If you’re skimming through you should know:

However, the vast majority of the UVC lamps on the market don’t use far-UVC yet – and again, it hasn’t been tested in actual humans, just on our cells in petri dishes and other animals. So this type of radiation probably won’t help you during the current pandemic either.

It does go on to talk about sunlight
and essentially says it’s possible that it might help, especially in water exposed to light (because peroxide),
but, even if it did have a significant effect, it would be very slow.

So I conclude that, for this current virus, just leaving things alone for a few days is more important than sun. (Although, of course, it’s still helpful for basic hygiene involving other micro-organisms)

and I’m left still not knowing much about UV and viruses
except that UV in general is a pretty blunt and weak instrument for a virus.
Specialist lamps maybe (using strong UV and including UVC, preferably far UVC for safety) but, in general, UV isn’t especially great at deactivating/destroying viruses.

[edited for punctuation and clarity]

ETA: NB the source for the article was Dan Arnold who “works for UV Light Technology, a company that provides disinfecting equipment to hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and food manufacturers across the UK.”

 

[Perrier]

@JemPD Really! How low can folks go? Utterly unacceptable in these trying times! I remember we used to have a milkman. One morning I opened the door, and there was a chap just leaving our place with the cream, and milk and butter. He dropped them on the sidewalk, and just grinned at me, like an idiot: no apology, nothing, just a moronic grin. Then there was the person who stole our spring water. It was on our back balcony, and I had not brought it in. The back garden has a locked gate. Believe it or not, but someone jumped over the fence, and must have handed the 3 huge spring water bottles to some waiting, and then jumped over the fence.

But your story Jem is utterly unacceptable. Shame on that person.

 

[JemPD]

Yes i'm a bit concerned about leaving the rest of my food in the back garden now @Perrier
It's in plastic crates with lids & protected by a 6ft fence & gate, but tomorrow i'm going to get my carer to wipe it all & bring it in. The thing is there is no way I can lift a week's shopping in by myself all on the same day, it's out of the question. Perhaps I will have to buy a lockable storage unit or something.

Although I imagine this may have been an opportunist theft - someone walking by or watching, but i'd love to know if it was one of my neighbours - I live on a cul de sac, so really there shouldn't have been anyone passing who doesn't live here. But then there are at least 2 families on the road who have people who've been in prison for various types of theft But I feel a bit hurt that someone would do that they must all know I disabled as I am only ever out in wheelchair.

Anyway, as my Mum used to say "it's nobody's life". There are bigger things to worry about I suppose

 

[Invisible Woman]

I'm wondering @JemPD, if it's possible the delivery driver took them back with him?

You only know for sure he walked in with them, not that he left them in your porch.

If you hadn't happened to see him you wouldn't have known they'd been delivered and would probably be complaining the company you bought them from - not that I'm necessarily suggesting you do this.

It's just a shame to be looking at your neighbours when it might not be them.

 

[JemPD]

I'm wondering @JemPD, if it's possible the delivery driver took them back with him?

You only know for sure he walked in with them, not that he left them in your porch.

If you hadn't happened to see him you wouldn't have known they'd been delivered and would probably be complaining the company you bought them from - not that I'm necessarily suggesting you do this.

It's just a shame to be looking at your neighbours when it might not be them.

Well I watched him walk away from the property to his van & he appeared to be empty handed & wasn't wearing a jacket so I cant imagine where he'd have hidden them. He was about 15... (lol he was I'm sure older than that but everyone under 30 looks 15 to me these days!)

 

[Invisible Woman]

Ah, ok. That's a shame @JemPD . I hadn't realized you saw him leave.

Nope, it does sound like a neighbour was the culprit. That's so unpleasant.

 

[JemPD]

Ah, ok. That's a shame @JemPD . I hadn't realized you saw him leave.

Nope, it does sound like a neighbour was the culprit. That's so unpleasant.

Yeah I shouted to him out of the bedroom window (he was about 5mtrs away at that point - he was supposed to ring me for instructions where to put the things, but he didn't, so it's a good job I did happen to see him else I assume he would have left it all on the front door step & I dont know what i'd have done then as there is no way on earth i could get more than a couple of bags in. They are also supposed to be delivering shopping in bags now, which they didn't, it's a good job there were crates for him to put the tins in out back else they'd have just been rolling around on the ground.

What with this today & the Ocado man yelling through my letterbox last wk... i'm not too impressed with these drivers frankly. Anyway I don't want to take the thread off course, but just a note of warning to everyone really, to be careful as it seems the unscrupulous are becoming aware that things are being left on door steps & taking advantage.

 

[JemPD]

Well, after all that, I'm happy & rather embarrassed to tell you all.... that I was not robbed! yay!

So just to refresh.... i asked him to put fridge/freezer stuff on front doorstep for me to drag in straight away, & all the rest (tins etc) to in the back garden in a couple of plastic storage boxes with lids - so they could be left outside while they naturally sanitise & thus would not need wiping.
As you know, a few items disappeared from the fridge stuff. I checked out back to make sure he not left them in with the non perishables & no they not there....

But when carer came today & went through wiping all the items still outside so they could be brought in -i'd planned to just leave them out there a few days but after yesterday I was concerned they might get pinched too... As she stacking the boxes she discovered that the silly delivery man put my smoked salmon etc *under* one of the boxes... which he then filled with my tins - so as to completely flatten & squash them under the box, hence no evidence of their existence could be seen no matter how I rummaged through the boxes - i'd never have found them until the boxes were emptied & lifted up. Why on earth he did that goodness only knows.

It's all squished except the salmon but that wont be safe to eat now after 24hrs outside of the fridge I don't suppose, but at least it means that they weren't stolen. What a palava!

No need to respond, I don't want to take up any more of the thread, but wanted you to know that they weren't stolen after all

 

[JemPD]

Been to supermarket many times, open market twice not wore a mask, nor gloves. Been to a funeral March 16th hugged people there, and few days later some of them came to my house for cup of tea ; one of them had a cough. We had no personal space between. I had cleaning lady came twice. I am living my usual life

Sorry Erin but that's a bit like the person who says "I drove for 40yrs without a seat belt & nothing bad ever happened to me". I'm glad that the person with a cough didn't infect you, but that doesn't mean that being in the room with them wasn't risky.

In terms of your link to the telegraph piece "no proof virus can be spread while shopping"... I didn't read it all because you need to sign in/subscribe, but I wouldn't trust that anyway.... simply because woefully few studies have been done.... therefore the statement 'we have no proof' simply indicates the sparcity of information, not that robust, peer reviewed, replicated studies have been done & proved it cant be passed on that way. Only that no studies have been done that found that it did.
There is no solid proof of any robust, replicated organic abnormality that is incontrovertible in ME either... because woefully insufficient studies have been done. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Of course you're at liberty to do whatever you you feel is best for you & I certainly wouldn't criticise anyone for not being as vigilant as i am (as long as they not putting others at risk with it), but please don't assume that

The more fear pumped makes most folk securer somehow

Much of the advice to wipe groceries & social distancing while in shops etc is common sense. Assuming it is inappropriate fear because it's not proven to be a place where transmission has been found is like saying that us avoiding exercise is based on the 'fear avoidance' behaviour simply because we have no incontravertable proof that it's causing us biological problems.

The vigilance being displayed in response to covid 19 is appropriate - in the absence of evidence, best guesses of protective behaviour are sensible. We may discover in the future that some of the measures were unnecessary but far better to err on the side of caution imho, than the opposite. People who smoked for many yrs before there was robust evidence that is causes cancer were oft heard saying 'I smoked for 40yrs never did me any harm'.....

 

[Sly Saint]

Not surprised the reaction to above post of mine. Scaremongering seems to be the only responsible way with this pandemic unfortunately. The more fear pumped makes most folk securer somehow. Its the opposite with me.

Well, I am not following anyone's advice. Just doing my usual hygiene chores. Not leaving shopping out for ages, not washing vegs and fruit with soap. Wiping some cans, tins, cartons and washing some depending how tired I am. This was my usual hygiene anyhow. Been to supermarket many times, open market twice not wore a mask, nor gloves. Been to a funeral March 16th hugged people there, and few days later some of them came to my house for cup of tea ; one of them had a cough. We had no personal space between. I had cleaning lady came twice. I am living my usual life except the whole world got shut down.

A couple of months ago I might have agreed with you, but you cannot ignore what is happening around the world. The way I look at it is it's not just about me not getting the virus, it's about everyone doing their bit to try and eliminate the virus, wherever it might be, and prevent it spreading.

 

[Mithriel]

It all comes down to risk. You can be super vigilant and some stray virus wafts in as you open a door and you get infected or you can be casual about everything and still not get infected. I read that only a small percentage of people in China became sick.

The biggest risks are eliminated by washing hands and not touching your face after that every precaution you take only reduces the risk by a small amount with it lessening all the time.

When you are sick it is a balancing act between the amount of risk and what you can do. It bothers me that people who are physically unable to wipe down all their food and so on could become very depressed and despairing when they read threads like this.

While it is important to talk about what we are doing and what precautions we are taking, there are going to be people reading this thread who need to know how to keep themselves as safe as possible within their limits.

 

[lunarainbows]

It all comes down to risk. You can be super vigilant and some stray virus wafts in as you open a door and you get infected or you can be casual about everything and still not get infected. I read that only a small percentage of people in China became sick.

The biggest risks are eliminated by washing hands and not touching your face after that every precaution you take only reduces the risk by a small amount with it lessening all the time.

When you are sick it is a balancing act between the amount of risk and what you can do. It bothers me that people who are physically unable to wipe down all their food and so on could become very depressed and despairing when they read threads like this.

While it is important to talk about what we are doing and what precautions we are taking, there are going to be people reading this thread who need to know how to keep themselves as safe as possible within their limits.

I think it’s up to everyone individually, what level of risk they take vs what measures they personally can cope with. For example myself with severe ME, and severe asthma, if I were to end up ill with this virus, I know there’s a high chance I may not survive but worse than that, even the act of going into hospital (with the lights and noise) may well finish me off.

So even if I was only eliminating the risk by an extra 5 or 10% by wiping down surfaces, or leaving things in quarantine, that’s still a measure I would take. If it was just me, living on my own, (even though I can’t right now), then because I can’t wipe down everything, I would take precautions like only buying tinned and powdered foods that could be kept in a quarantine for a few weeks therefore not needing to be wiped down, and only getting a few freezer staples that could be wiped down immediately.

Everyone needs to measure how much risk they’ll tolerate but for those of us with severe and very severe ME, the risk of even going into hospital itself let alone possibly needing a ventilator, may be too great.

 

[JemPD]

When you are sick it is a balancing act between the amount of risk and what you can do. It bothers me that people who are physically unable to wipe down all their food and so on could become very depressed and despairing when they read threads like this.

Yes you make a very good point there.
But i'm not sure what can be done about that? I don't want to contribute to anyone's despair.

I would take precautions like only buying tinned and powdered foods that could be kept in a quarantine for a few weeks therefore not needing to be wiped down, and only getting a few freezer staples that could be wiped down immediately.

This is what i'm doing & i'm sacrificing other things like (on the day it arrives) not eating a hot meal - ie i'm eating fruit/nuts/crackers etc the day the food arrives & leaving everything except handful of fresh/frozen items outside.... but i'm privileged to have a back garden to do that in. I cant sit in/enjoy my back garden even when well enough, because of the continuous humming of the neighbour's hot tub, but at least it's useful for this. The main reason i'm doing this is because I find it physically & mentally less taxing than hand washing. For me it's easier to wipe 6 items, than it is to think about/stand up at the sink, to wash my hands more often. Once it's in & wiped I don't have to think about it again.

As Luna says it's up to each individual with their circumstances to weigh up pros & cons. It's probably a tiny risk i'm eliminating, but it's worth it to me. But of course there will be loads of people who arent well enough & are reliant on their carers to be vigilant. Fortunately mine is as vigilant as i am.

Edited to add - 2nd & 3rd sentences

 

[lunarainbows]

The main reason i'm doing this is because I find it physically & mentally less taxing than hand washing. For me it's easier to wipe 6 items, than it is to think about/stand up at the sink, to wash my hands more often. Once it's in & wiped I don't have to think about it again.

Im the same. As I’m in bed all day, only go to the toilet a few times a day whenever I actually need the toilet and need to be pushed there in a wheelchair - I don’t wash my hands except for after I use the toilet. I don’t wash my hands before eating as it’ll make me too tired to do that before eating. And I try to not use hand gel at home as the smell is too much for me. So because I know everything is fully wiped and/or quarantined, I don’t worry about washing my hands.

 

[Perrier]

Here's an article from the Huffington Post suggesting that it is not necessary to wash the vegetables before putting them away, and is suggesting that using a little dish soap may be harmful.

My experience is that washing leafy greens, etc in a large tub with a tablespoon of bleach and rinsing many time, then drying out the leafy greens very well, and then storing them has led to a much longer shelf life in the refrigerator of these vegetables. I actually, will not stop doing this. Not sure what others think.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry..._5e8cced3c5b6e1d10a6b0a6f?ncid=APPLENEWS00001

 

[Trish]

I transfer fresh vegetables from the plastic bag they arrive in from the supermarket to a clean new plastic bag before I put them in the fridge in case there's any virus on the outside of the bag.

We're not eating any salads at the moment, so I reckon a normal rinse in water to get soil off, then cooking, is sufficient if there's any virus lurking on them. I can't imagine virus surviving boiling or roasting.

 

[Sasha]

Here's an article from the Huffington Post suggesting that it is not necessary to wash the vegetables before putting them away, and is suggesting that using a little dish soap may be harmful.

Thanks - you've just saved me a giant job!

 

[Sasha]

Is there an authoritative list now of how long this coronavirus lasts on various surfaces? I'd been leaving food in card and paper packaging for a day in 'quarantine' because I'd thought that the virus only lived for up to a day on card, but I just saw this list on WebMD (about 'coronaviruses' so maybe not the SARS Cov-2) which indicates that paper might act more like a hard surface and so maybe smooth card (as opposed to the uncoated corrugated stuff used by Amazon etc.) does also - in which case I ought to be leaving that stuff for ages.

Does anyone have a better list?

 

[Sean]

Not sure why soap/detergent cannot be safely rinsed off fruit and veg. They are water soluble. It is only a question of how much rinsing is required. Though no doubt some F&V are easier to rinse than others. Apples or pumpkins should be easy enough, but Brussels sprouts might be a bit trickier.

That said, I certainly don't wish to be washing stuff for any reason if I don't need to. At the very least it costs limited energy.

(Might not even need to worry about it soon, as my region of Australia is looking like being virus-free. No new cases for 9 days. Fingers crossed. )

 

[Wonko]

Not sure why soap/detergent cannot be safely rinsed off fruit and veg. They are water soluble. It is only a question of how much rinsing is required. Though no doubt some F&V are easier to rinse than others. Apples or pumpkins should be easy enough, but Brussels sprouts might be a bit trickier.

That said, I certainly don't wish to be washing stuff for any reason if I don't need to. At the very least it costs limited energy.

(Might not even need to worry about it soon, as my region of Australia is looking like being virus-free. No new cases for 9 days. Fingers crossed. )

As far as I know the natural oils in the skin of various things are there as a protective layer.

People probably shouldn't be removing them when shopping arrives, if people are going to wash stuff then it would appear to make more sense to do this immediately before consumption - by which point most things will probably have already been 'quarantined' for long enough, to deactivate this virus anyway.

Alternatively, as I have done, just don't buy stuff which doesn't come in a nice protective polythene bag, cardboard box, or tin.

Although this policy was not the way I normally buy things (e.g. quite apart from any environmental concerns, the quality and price of most bagged fruit is less than the unbagged ones - as those are more on show, and prior to this most boxed and tinned food - processed yuk), and 'annoying', but better than the alternative.

I had, to a much more limited extent, already started doing this before this virus, due to the supermarkets just leaving veg and fruit to roll around in crates of unknown provenance - some things are obviously fine (e.g oranges, onions), but some things are difficult to wash (e.g. broccoli), or removing the outer, possibly contaminated with god knows what, layers, is wasteful.