Psychologists Grete and Frøydis Lilledalen about ME and CBT/GET.

Grigor

Grigor

Senior Member (Voting Rights)
"On the trail of a less inflamed ME debate."

Clinical psychogist Grete Lilledalen about ME and CBT/GET. Well worth the read and share!

"We must stop attributing illness and the absence of improvement to the patient's personality."

"Instead of building the stigma of "treatment resistance" and "victim blaming" one should look at whether treatment options can be improved and changed."

English: https://bit.ly/2Yax8uD

Norwegian: https://psykologtidsskriftet.no/debatt/2020/03/pa-sporet-av-en-mindre-betent-me-debatt



The link to the piece by psychologist Charlotte Ryhl is not working but it can be found here:

"Psychologists also have a responsibility for children and adolescents with ME."

English: https://t.co/0mRkMTJgKl

Danish: https://t.co/sdVsCxL4CD

Excellent as well!
 
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A real breath of fresh air. A psychologist with her finger on the pulse. I wonder if @Brian Hughes may be interested in this. Also perhaps @PhysiosforME.

Interesting that Grete Lilledalen describes herself as a psychologist who is also a relative of an ME patient. The greatest insights for people without ME (and I speak for myself here as much as anyone) typically come from having real day to day understanding of a pwME. There is something crucial in that day to day understanding that scientific studies are very poor to glean, yet for ME is especially important.
 
In the second article I'm guessing something may have got lost in translation here ...
they lack the motivation but physical energy and endurance to perform the tasks
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Given the rest of the article, did Charlotte Ryhl really say these children lack motivation? At least in the context it sounds like here? I'm guessing the sentence might need better translation?
 
Barry said:
In the second article I'm guessing something may have got lost in translation here ...

Given the rest of the article, did Charlotte Ryhl really say these children lack motivation? At least in the context it sounds like here? I'm guessing the sentence might need better translation?
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I would say so. Considering the rest of the piece. Hopefully someone here can clear it up for us!
 
Barry said:
In the second article I'm guessing something may have got lost in translation here ...

Given the rest of the article, did Charlotte Ryhl really say these children lack motivation? At least in the context it sounds like here? I'm guessing the sentence might need better translation?
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Yes, translate-error.

The original text actually say:
"They DON'T lack the motivation, but physical energy and....."

As the motivation is good/not the problem :)
 
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Grigor said:
"We must stop attributing illness and the absence of improvement to the patient's personality."
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That would require ending psychosomatics as it has existed for decades. As long as psychosomatics continues to be treated as a serious topic, this can't happen. The only reason this happens is because of the "default" reflex and general beliefs in magical psychology on which psychosomatics operates.

I am 100% in favor of this. The whole thing is anachronistic nonsense that belongs right along ghosts and demons. It has caused nothing but harm, regress and suffering. I have personally been ruined by it, against my explicit rejection of this nonsense, which is deemed irrelevant because psychosomatics has deprived me of my agency, of my ability to testify to my life experience, a dehumanizing and cruel practice that serves no purpose other than propping up this wretched antiscience nonsense.

All it would take is to require any psychosomatic model to show objective evidence before it is treated as having legitimate medical significance and stop the way the field is exempted from the normal requirements of the scientific method and ethical requirements, the least of which is consent. Medicine without consent leads to disaster. Psychosomatics cannot exist alongside the consent of patients. It also cannot show any evidence of anything. None of those exemptions are justifiable and they are the reasons why psychosomatics is a death machine that creates suffering in exchange for mediocre careers while propping up the alternative medicine industry.

This will inevitably happen with time. Might as well be on the right side of history, turn the whole thing upside down and work on the actual biopsychosocial consequences of illness, rather than its causes. Now that will help people. Finally
 
Some more quotes of posts about Frøydis Lilledalen. To find the posts in context, and replies to the posts, click on the up arrows in the titles of the quote.

Kalliope said:
The article says the biopsychosocial side wants to investigate treatments as CBT, while the biomedical side thinks the illness should be investigated as a "physiological" illness. It says USA and UK stopped recommending CBT and GET, but that the countries have not chosen any sides.

Psychologist and ME sufferer Frøydis Lillesalen says the main reason for the frustration, beside the illness itself, is the lack of research and lack of help.

- ME patients have tried psychological treatments for 40 years. If these interventions had worked, we'd be left with very few ME patients in Norway.

Henrik Vogt, MD and leader of Recovery Norge says that Recovery Norge would never have had a function, had those who recover been welcome or listened to by the Norwegian ME Association.

Frøydis Lilledalen is sceptical that an organisation with 2-300 recovered people, is used to represent a patient group of 20 000 people.

https://www.morgenbladet.no/aktuelt...hold-og-politiberedskap-de-forsoker-a-ta-oss/
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mango said:
Has this been shared already? I've listened to about one third of it now, and I think it's really good :thumbsup:


Norges Myalgisk Encefalopati Forening: HOLD UT - foredrag med psykologspesialist Frøydis Lilledalen
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Midnattsol said:
We have been off to a strong start of the year when it comes to opinion pieces, with several accepted from patient advocates Frøydis Lilledalen and Lena Kjempegren-Vold :thumbup:

Forskning.no
Helsesystemet står med svekket tillit i møtet med ME-pasienter | The health care system has little faith for patients with ME
Psykologiseringen av ME-pasienter synliggjør psykologiens umodenhet | The psychologisation of ME-patients highlights the lack of maturity of psychology as a field

Dagens Medisin
Fra Semmelweis til ME-pasientene: Hvorfor vi må lytte til dem som står nærmest problemet | From Semmelweis to the ME patients: Why we have to listen to those closest to the problem

From december last year, but I'll add it anyway
Psykologtidsskriftet (Norwegian journal of psychology, that ran a special issue on health psychology in december that also included a text on the benefit of the mislabelled biopsychosocial model)
Et forsvar for en biomedisinsk tilnærming til ME | A defense of the biomedical approach to ME
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Kalliope said:
A great reply today from ME patient, psychologist and author Frøydis Lilledalen.

Forventninger kurerer ikke long covid

google translation Expectations do not cure long covid

Quote:
We need fewer undocumented hypotheses, less reference to VR glasses, and more knowledge updates in the face of increasing numbers of ME and long-term COVID patients. We have tried to psychologist diseases following infections, but it has neither increased recovery nor reduced incidence.
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Midnattsol said:
Multiple opinion pieces of Frøydis Lilledalen about psychologisation and ME is on the most read list on forskning.no for 2025 :)
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