Opinion Pragmatism in the fray: Constructing futures for ‘medically unexplained symptoms’, 2024, Greco

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic research - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by Dolphin, Oct 12, 2023.

Tags:
  1. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,118
    Forthcoming in Schermer, M. and Binney, N. (eds) (2024) A New Pragmatic Approach to the Conceptualisation of Health and Disease. Springer.

    https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.n...VX~vdPdf2A__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

    Pragmatism in the fray: Constructing futures for ‘medically unexplained symptoms’

    Monica Greco
    Goldsmiths, University of London

    Abstract

    The expression ‘medically unexplained symptoms’ is still widely used to indicate physical symptoms that are not attributable to any known conventionally defined disease.

    It is discursively related to several other concepts including somatisation, somatic symptom disorder (DSM 5), and functional somatic syndromes, which include the diagnoses of fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple chemical sensitivity, and irritable bowel syndrome, among others.

    Some of these conditions are currently the object of controversies and political battles.

    This chapter examines what it can mean to approach this group of conditions ‘pragmatically’ by contrasting two different versions of pragmatism.

    One version, exemplified in social research that aligns itself with arguments proposed by some patient movements, is consistent with Rorty’s ‘epistemological behaviourism’.

    Another version, exemplified by a novel clinical intervention (the Symptoms Clinic) is consistent with William James’ ‘radical empiricism’.

    It is argued that these different approaches yield significantly different consequences.

    The first affords legitimacy to patients on an immediate and piecemeal basis at the expense of reinforcing a bifurcated mode of thought.

    This, it is argued, is a factor in (re)producing the experience of ‘medically unexplained symptoms’.

    The second is premised on the assumption of a relational continuity between social structure, embodied experience, and physiology.
     
    oldtimer, duncan, Trish and 4 others like this.
  2. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,478
    Location:
    UK
    What's the academic term for 'medicine is really stupid sometimes'?

    Because that's the third version of pragmatism. It wins the pragmatism contest because you can describe the entire theory in phone emojis.
     
    oldtimer, EzzieD, FMMM1 and 13 others like this.
  3. Ravn

    Ravn Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,068
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    Curious as to what the "novel clinical intervention" might be I googled "Symptoms Clinic" and this was the top hit, from 2012 (don't know if relevant to the OP as haven't read either, note the authors though)

    Burton C, Weller D, Marsden W, Worth A, Sharpe M
    A primary care Symptoms Clinic for patients with medically unexplained symptoms: pilot randomised trial
    BMJ Open 2012;2:e000513. doi: 10.1136/bmjopen-2011-000513
     
    oldtimer, Milo, Solstice and 2 others like this.
  4. Hoopoe

    Hoopoe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,256
    Hot take: these long philosophical discourses on medically unexplained symptoms are medical narcissism.

    It's easier to engage in these discourses than to admit that we don't know. It's easier to blame the patients than admit one's own powerlessness to help.

    The accusation of dualism is made by people who couldn't get over the fact that their cherished pet theory was rejected by patients. By refusing to accept this as legitimate feedback, they also stop themselves from moving on and coming up with new better ideas.

    I don't know if dualism features here but bifurcated mode of thought sounds like it's some variant of the same idea.
     
    shak8, oldtimer, EzzieD and 14 others like this.
  5. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    52,436
    Location:
    UK
    Monica Greco is the Head of the department of Sociology at Goldsmith's University, London.
    Here's what they say about her:
    Previous forum threads on her work:

    Monica Greco (draft for 2017 paper) Pragmatics of explanation : creative accountability and ‘medically unexplained symptoms’

    Michael Sharpe and Monica Greco: Mind, Medicine and Morals: A Tale of Two Illnesses (2019) BMJ blog - and published responses

    Conceptualising illness and disease: reflections on Sharpe and Greco (2019) Wilshire and Ward


    The concept of ‘illness without disease’ impedes understanding of chronic fatigue syndrome: a response to Sharpe and Greco, 2020, Lubet & Tuller

    What is the Functional / Organic Distinction Actually Doing in Psychiatry and Neurology? (Preprint, 2020) Bell, Greco et al

    United Kingdom: Multiple Symptoms Study 3 (ScHARR) - NIHR funded MUS treatment trial Led by Prof Chris Burton. Greco is listed as a co-investigator, 2021-3
    "Multiple Symptoms Study 3 is a large randomised controlled trial to test the effectiveness of a Symptoms Clinic for people with persistent “medically unexplained” physical symptoms."
     
    oldtimer, Solstice, Ravn and 8 others like this.
  6. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    12,491
    Location:
    Canada
    Booooooring
    Yeah, you don't say? Maybe stop making stuff up to fuel the wrong side of a battle that doesn't even need to happen and has only caused massive suffering?

    Also, taking from the Oxford dictionary:
    Please stop misusing words. Nothing these quacks say or do has anything to do with pragmatism. They embody bureaucratic failure and intellectual masturbation like no one else has managed to in decades, stuck with their old belief systems. Millions of people have no future because ideologues can't let go of the past. What a dumb waste of lives and resources.
     
    oldtimer, shak8, EzzieD and 6 others like this.
  7. Ravn

    Ravn Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,068
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    At least there can be no doubt as to what Greco thinks, according to her patients are "(re)producing the experience of ‘medically unexplained symptoms’" but fear not, there's a "novel clinical intervention" (novel?! just how many decades can you continue to call something 'novel'?)

    Seeing how closely Greco has worked with some of the people behind the organised pushback against the NICE ME/CFS guidelines (think the Oslo consortium, Anomalies paper, etc), a pushback which includes the strategy of building a body of published work that's intended to lend an illusion of weight to their argumentsopinions I can only see two possible scenarios.

    Either Greco is in cahoots with them and this upcoming chapter is part of that organised strategy.

    Or Greco herself is not directly involved and is acting in good faith, in which case it's still highly likely she's being 'encouraged' by the people behind the organised strategy, and it's more than highly likely they'll use her work to support their own ambitions

    Either way it's not helping patients
     
    bobbler, oldtimer, shak8 and 2 others like this.
  8. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,252
    In her domain of science, this is what they believe. I have very little doubt she is completely sincere in her beliefs--no matter how wrong, illogical or stupid those beliefs are.
     
    bobbler, oldtimer, shak8 and 7 others like this.
  9. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    13,600
    Location:
    London, UK
    What the author seems to be unaware of is that Chris Burtons' love of pragmatism is purely based on the idea of muddling along without doing any rigorous science. It bears no relation to the pragmatism of William James in metaphysics.

    This is really just moving words around on a Scrabble board.
     
    oldtimer, bobbler, Ravn and 6 others like this.
  10. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    13,600
    Location:
    London, UK
    Except that it isn't really. Both Rorty and James had well-defined arguments for particular metaphysical approaches. James was also genuinely a scientist. This sort of stuff isn't even academic, even if it claims to be. It is more akin to agony aunt columns in Sunday newspapers.
     
  11. Milo

    Milo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,108
    Symptom clinics already exist.
     
    Ravn and NelliePledge like this.
  12. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    52,436
    Location:
    UK
    This sort of word salad mind games by people whose training and interest is in history, philosophy and sociology really pisses me off. I'm sick, Ms Greco, I'm not interested in your philosophising and academic career. She reminds me of Shorter, another one who pontificates on ME/CFS and other conditions some clinicians have decided to class as psychosomatic. And of course clinicians like Sharpe lap it up, using this crap to bolster their own beliefs and sense of superiority. I wish all philosophisers would butt out of medicine and leave it to real doctors and scientist who do real research properly.
     
    Lou B Lou, oldtimer, RedFox and 17 others like this.
  13. ME/CFS Skeptic

    ME/CFS Skeptic Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,515
    Location:
    Belgium
    RedFox likes this.
  14. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,252
    Ha, good point! but I was referring to their branch of pseudo-whatever (science? philosophy?) relating to the "MUS" construct.
     
    shak8 and bobbler like this.
  15. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    52,436
    Location:
    UK
    I had a go at reading the whole Greco chapter. I ignored the bits about philosophers or whatever.

    What I got from it was that she assumes all conditions classed as MUS are basically psychosomatic, and are relatively modern phenomena caused and perpetuated by psychosocial factors.

    She goes on to contrast two approaches:

    1. US medical and insurance system's approach of needing physical evidence of disease in order to get financial support, so the incentive is for patients and their lawyers to find things like brain scans to convince insurance companies the disease is 'real', while at the same time real scientists don't think the brain scans used mean anything. And that this satisfies patients' immediate need for support, but perpetuates illness/disablity because the patient needs to go on presenting themselves and behaving as sick. She concludes that this is bad for patients because by acting sick, they never recover.

    2. She contrast this with the Burton et al. project we discussed here:
    Recognition, explanation, action, learning: Teaching and delivery of a consultation model for persistent physical symptoms, 2023, Fryer et al which she was involved with which she describes in some detail, and concludes enables patients to feel heard, believed, agree an explanation that satisfies them about cause, and see their symptoms as part of the spectrum of normality and so have hope and get better. I think I understood her to mean that it is the actual process of establishing an explanation the patient believes that enables real recovery based on altered perceptions etc.

    I don't think there are published results of that study in terms of whether it helped patients. It was all about whether they were successful in training GP's to administer it, ie about whether it helped GP's feel more able to handle pwMUS, not about whether it helped patients.

    Greco seems to be totally convinced she is right that MUS are relatively new psychosocial phenomena, and that approaches that basically lie to patients about causes are bad if they enable insurance payouts and thereby reinforce belief in physical causes because that perpetuates illness behaviour, whereas lying to patients in the way the symptoms clinic does is good because it gives hope and therefore leads to recovery.

    Or some such nonsense.

    Edit: Corrected typos.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2023
    oldtimer, Sean, SNT Gatchaman and 5 others like this.
  16. Hoopoe

    Hoopoe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,256
    Oh wow that sounds like they need to do some *checks notes* reality testing.

     
    bobbler, oldtimer and Trish like this.
  17. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    13,600
    Location:
    London, UK
    I had a conversation at the NICE committee with Burton over the fact that pragmatic trials of this sort by definition cannot provide evidence of efficacy. (That is how pragmatic trails are defined - they sacrifice the rigour needed to establish cause and effect relations in order to answer practical questions such as ease of delivery.) Burton clearly had no understanding of the problem.

    It is perhaps of interest that Burton did not sign White's 'Anomalies..." paper. Presumably he couldn't having been a committee member and signed up to the conclusions - that trials that did actually try to be designed to get an answer were still of too poor quality to get one.
     
    FMMM1, bobbler, shak8 and 5 others like this.
  18. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,252
    She cites Kate Kelland's piece of trash "journalism" about so-called "harassment" of Professor Sharpe as evidence of something or other. She also fails to grapple with the abysmal quality of the PACE trial and all the other research in this domain. Perhaps all that doesn't matter in her epistemological view of the "iatragenic vortex of somatisation."
     
    bobbler, shak8, EzzieD and 4 others like this.
  19. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    13,600
    Location:
    London, UK
    I have had a brilliant idea for an MRC research grant.

    I gather that it is known that women and men have different sensitivity of their sense of smell such that, for instance, women can tell Brut from Chanel No. 5 but people like me have no idea.

    I think we should have a study of the ability to smell bullshit. It clearly does not fall quite in line with other olfactory traits. Quite a lot of women seem to be unable to detect bullshit emanating from under orange or yellow hair for instance.

    Perhaps specific genes are involved. Maybe it needs a GWAS study of bullshit sniffers and non-bullshit sniffers. It would need to be carefully set up interns of recruitment though. Too many people from Chalfont St Giles and Tunbridge Wells (or maybe Miami) could skew things badly.

    We might even discover that there is a separate organ for detecting bullshit, supplied by the vagus nerve and situated in the earlobe region. Having one's ears pierced might reduce the sensitivity significantly, as might face-lifts.

    I was thinking of around a £5M grant over ten years.
     
    Milo, FMMM1, shak8 and 3 others like this.
  20. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    52,436
    Location:
    UK
    I've been thinking about this sort of article and careers built on this sort of stuff by people with no medical knowledge or understanding of science. What Greco and her ilk are doing is parasitic. She is creating an academic career that feeds off fantasies created by the likes of Sharpe, White, Burton et al and treating them as though they are reporting reality. And they in turn are parasites, feeding their little egos and careers on fantasies about what they choose to give a thousand names but really mean is psychosomatic aka hysteria. And in feeding off our misfortune, they do us immeasurable harm.

    Don't try to analyse that analogy too closely, it probably doesn't work, but it made sense to me.
     
    Milo, SNT Gatchaman, rvallee and 8 others like this.

Share This Page