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(not a recommendation) ME/CFS and Freeze: using Naviauxs research to explain the role of trauma

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Sly Saint, Sep 18, 2018.

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  1. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    September 14, 2018 Veronique Mead, MD, MA

    upload_2018-9-18_13-39-22.jpeg


    full article here:
    https://chronicillnesstraumastudies.com/mecfs-freeze/

    eta: as far as I know this doctor has nothing to do with Robert Naviaux

    About Veronique Mead, MD, MA
    MD turned trauma specialist, blogger, researcher, patient, sharing science on how adverse life events and trauma increase risk for chronic illness and tools for healing.


     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
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  2. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    Followed a couple of links and got to a page that’s all about “healing from trauma” including “multigenerational trauma”which is apparently where your ancestors go through a trauma and then pass it on to you.......
     
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  3. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm buggered then.
     
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  4. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    I've read all I can stand of this. It is a blog written by a woman who was a doctor in general practice, but after experiencing intermittent bouts of fatigue over some years gave up being a doctor and retrained as a 'trauma therapist'.

    She has built herself a model of what she thinks causes and can cure chronic illnesses based around various alternative psychotherapies including one called Somatic Experiencing. Her reference to Naviaux work seems to be entirely to give some sense of sciency sounding legitimacy to her theories, hanging them on the hook of being stuck in a hibernating state which she says is caused by trauma, past or present.

    A lot of is is wrapped around her own personal story, though she admits she had to dig back to grandparents to find some trauma to hang her ideas on in her case, and she also admits she still suffers from fatigue and has to pace carefully.

    I've read enough to know it's not for me. It's not scientific, it's alt. med. and unproven.
     
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  5. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Sort of great-grandma-traumababble?
     
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  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Not at all. All these things tell us something useful about other people's perceptions.

    I noted, on the topic of freeze that someone at the CMRC meeting is talking of total body cryotherapy or something. It will be interesting to know what that is about.
     
  7. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    No need to apologise, you can't tell from looking at the front page. And to be fair, I didn't read it all. There's something about the vagus nerve but I didn't get that far - the reliance on her own experiences and the psychobabble put me off.
     
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  8. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I've just skimmed through and the fact that she keeps putting Dr Robert Naviaux Research in the heading is extremely deceptive. I whizzed through to the treatments sections and they are all 'therapies' and links to various kinds of therapists websites.
    https://chronicillnesstraumastudies.com/therapies-chronic-illness-stress-triggers-perception-threat/

    Unfortunately, I think we are probably going to see more of this; using the B in BPS to justify the PS BS.
     
  9. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It may sometimes be good for us to see the problems which may be faced by doctors in the ways in which patients may present. Members of this forum are not necessarily representative of the full range of beliefs which patients have of the illness-especially of the beliefs of those who may not have it.
     
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  10. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I literally had this train of thought yesterday with the PS BS :laugh:. High-five.
     
  11. Sarah

    Sarah Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Veering a touch OT, but this put me in mind of a Max Pemberton Daily Mail piece from Dec 2017 on transgeneration trauma.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...rist-Dr-Max-Pemberton-makes-rethink-life.html
    Pemberton didn't give the reference, but publication dates and contemporaneous reporting in the Telegraph indicate it was:

    Association of the World War II Finnish Evacuation of Children With Psychiatric Hospitalization in the Next Generation.
    Santavirta T, et al. JAMA Psychiatry. 2018.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5833542/

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science...a-can-inherited-future-generations-new-study/

    In short, it didn't show 'childhood trauma altered genes', because gene expression wasn't under study. Pemberton may also have had this earlier, publicised small study on trauma in Holocaust survivors in mind:

    Holocaust Exposure Induced Intergenerational Effects on FKBP5 Methylation.
    Yehuda R, et al. Biol Psychiatry. 2016.
    https://www.biologicalpsychiatryjou...tract#/article/S0006-3223(15)00652-6/fulltext
     
  12. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Even if we supposed the idea of transgenerational trauma to be correct how does this fit with people becoming chronically ill?
     
  13. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    And if it's a genetic change she's talking about being passed from one generation to another, how is wacky therapy (or even sensible therapy) going to change that?
     
  14. Sarah

    Sarah Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Well, precisely. Browsing the site it seems like she thinks changing environmental factors might be of benefit, so whether she thinks she can 'switch on or off' genes that have supposedly been affected by ancestor trauma with changes to environment, I don't know.

    There is a list of potential causes of trauma on one of the pages, which I'd imagine given one or two generations of ancestral trauma would entail most people on the planet being transgenerationally traumatised.

    Edited to beef out quote
     
  15. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Presumably in exactly the same way as tablets don't upgrade their processors and memory to compensate for operating system "upgrades", or giraffes don't spontaneously turn into polar bears when winter comes.

    When will these people understand the difference between hardware and software?

    ETA - I know biology is a bit more 'intertwined' than that, but...they seem to think everything, literally everything, is controlled by the mind i.e. software, and that the underlying biology i.e. hardware, is irrelevant.

    As far as I know in almost, if not, all cases where scientific type studies have been done it's been shown that the biology controls and directs the mind, not the other way round.

    This is as you I would expect, the hardwares been around a lot longer than the current version of the software, so, in order for it to survive, it has to have the edge, priority wise.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  16. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think this is the problem with loose poorly structured hypothesis. Naviaux’s hibernation paper leaves things so open that it’s easily psychobabbleable by these loons who want to market their own form of tripe. His latest paper is no different, in fact he’s actually put “healing” in it.

    I think we should prepare ourselves for more of this type of fake science marketing, so I for one would like the proper scientists to make sure their papers are written in a more disciplined way with this in mind.

    Note: after reading Naviaux’s last paper I may be giving him more credit than is due. I dislike woolly conjecture dressed up as science, so in that respect Mead and Naviaux are really in the same camp
     
  17. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    ah yes that explains the problems I have with my neck.............some of my ancestors were sent to the guillotine:laugh:
     
  18. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    And why I get seasick - at least one of my ancestors was transported on a convict ship to Australia, my dad was proud to discover!
     
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  19. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I wonder if my cognitive problems could be put down to the guillotine? An increased spatial displacement of a few feet between the head and body of one of my ancestors, coupled with a temporal displacement of a couple of hundred years, might lead to a genetic predisposition to slow down processing a bit
     
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  20. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    I'm immediately suspicious of the results of this study, because they immediately break them down by gender without stating up-front that gender and gender interactions are likely to be important. My suspicion is that there were no overall effects, so they went fishing by comparing different parent-child gender combinations.

    Oh, and what @Sarah said. Not at all relevant to genes and epigenetics. Its nothing to do with that.

    I get an overwhelming sense here that the research question asked should simply never have been asked. Its just a cute idea, and not ready for testing until you can at least come up with a reasonable theoretical model as to what one might expect to see, what mechanisms are at play, and how that might be affected by other relevant factors (which, by the way, are NOT just gender, but also socioeconomic class and a hundred others). Its just a waste of time and money.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
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