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Norway and prof. Gundersen: PACE-debate in newspaper Morgenbladet

Discussion in 'PsychoSocial ME/CFS News' started by Kalliope, Feb 21, 2018.

  1. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The Norwegian biology professor Kristian Gundersen has several times criticised ME-patients for criticising research.

    First time was last year where he defended PACE against its criticism and warned against ME-patients being listened to. @Jonathan Edwards wrote a response.

    Last week he defended a study on homosexuality and a theory from Stanford researchers on whether an algorithm can identify sexual orientation from pictures, a study which has been strongly criticised.
    Prof. Gundersen drew a parallell in the same text to ME-patients' attack on "the biggest study within the field (meaning PACE), because it implies the condition could be psychological". This was written as a debate article in the newspaper Morgenbladet - a wonderful newspaper with great feature articles on research. I hope some journalists there are starting to get curious.

    He got two replies regarding this:
    Synsing om syke
    google translate: strong opinions and little knowledge about patients

    All forskning er ikke like god
    google translate: All research is not equally good

    Today prof. Gundersen came with a reply himself:
    ME-miljøene er et skrekkens eksempel over hele verden
    googel translation: The ME environments are a world wide horror example

    He continues to defend PACE, defends Ketil Brurberg from the Cochrane review group, attacks prof. Coyne and the Journal of Health Psychology, claims that ME-patients are torpedoing projects which could confirm PACE and that they are bullying researchers out of the field.

    - In the long run, the ME/CFS activists make the patients a disservice. In order to proceed with research on ME/CFS, we must use the science toolbox. You can't reach true knowledge on activism.
     
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  2. Indigophoton

    Indigophoton Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Well here's the problem :rolleyes::banghead:
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
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  3. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It seems that Dr Gundersen is himself very keen on activism:

    Wikipedia: Gundersen is an active communicator of science, and participates in public debate on university policy issues and as critic of alternative treatment and superstition.

    As for using the toolbox of science, yes Dr Gundersen, that would help. What makes you think PACE does that? It is about the worst trial in history, even colleagues at QMUL are deeply embarrassed by it.
     
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  4. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Awww... Gunderson's blundering always makes me ache with frustration. It's amazing he keeps wanting to put forth his opinions on the scandal around PACE, despite not wanting to take the time to look at the details of the problems with PACE. It's such a weird position to want to hold, particularly as it has now been such a sustained period of time.
     
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  5. Valentijn

    Valentijn Guest

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    Reading and thinking is hard work! Spouting opinions is so easy that any idiot can do it, as Gunderson is thoughtfully demonstrating :rolleyes:
     
  6. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think it's time to coin the term alternative science. PACE is alternative science. A mess of self-confirmatory nonsense, done by people that don't know enough about real science to recognize their own incompetence.
     
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  7. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    I prefer non-science, pronounced nonsense.
     
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  8. MEMarge

    MEMarge Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Or fake science
     
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  9. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I don't think he's even bothered to look deeper into the details on PACE. If I remember correctly, he studied in England. His trust in British institutions as the Lancet is rock solid. I don't think it has occurred to him that it is even possible that the system in which he relies on can produce serious mistakes. Also, I get a paternalistic vibe of a scholar who doesn't want patients messing with pure research with their opinions and experiences. That patients can have a say in distribution of research funds, or by collecting money themselves for the research they want to see done, must sound like a nightmare to him. I think that might be the core here.
     
  10. Luther Blissett

    Luther Blissett Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm just here to lower the tone and to say that a lot of people who enjoy a good rummage around in toolboxes seem to have an unfortunate habit of baring their arses.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Skycloud

    Skycloud Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I might steal that if that's ok?
     
  12. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  13. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  14. Skycloud

    Skycloud Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  15. Andy

    Andy Committee Member (& Outreach when energy allows)

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    So he's fine with attacking patients and dismissing their concerns but his feelings are hurt when one of his peers does the same to him....
     
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  16. large donner

    large donner Guest

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  17. benji

    benji Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Is it right to say Gundersen is being polemic?
    I kind of think so.
     
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  18. TiredSam

    TiredSam Moderator Staff Member

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    Psy-ence?
     
  19. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    sharp(e) practice

    sharp practice
    noun
    noun: sharp practice
    dishonest or barely honest dealings.
    "any kind of sharp practice will ruin a barrister's career"
    synonyms: trickery, chicanery, deception, deceit, deceitfulness, duplicity, dishonesty, unscrupulousness, underhandedness, subterfuge, fraud, fraudulence, legerdemain, sophistry, skulduggery, swindling, cheating, duping, hoodwinking
     
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  20. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    False-beliefs science.
     
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