Nasobiotex L. Sakei Probiotic Powder for sinus microbiome - anyone tried it?

[TigerLilea]

@TigerLilea You reminded me of my experience with the neti pot. I bought a neti pot in my severe years for my chronic sinusitis. I had to stop using it. I felt so much worse, increased dizziness, heavy head. It felt like the walls of my sinus held on to some of the water making me feel even worse than before.

My sinuses felt so much better once I did the rinse this morning with plain saline water. The Bactoferm water was burning the sinuses. I've never been able to use my pot too often as I end up with ear ache after using several days in a row.

 

[TigerLilea]

I would consider backing off on the amount and/or frequency if these symptoms are too much. It's possible to still reorganize the bacterial balance in your sinus by pulsing on a less vigorous schedule, and avoid overwhelming your system with these bacterial by-products.

That's what I'm thinking, also. Lacto-Bacto recommend just once a day.

 

[TigerLilea]

This is from the Lacto-Bacto website:

My experience with the Bactoferm F-RM-52 is that it works well, it is reliable, and it is not as gentle as kimchi. I use this product once a day when needed, perhaps for only 3 or 4 days in a row, then wait a day or 2 or 3 to see if more is needed, because it has a lot of L. sakei in it (therefore strong). The effect of the second microbe is unknown (but it is considered non-pathogenic) and we (and others) have not found any problems. If too much is used at one time (many times in each nostril - such as 5 times in each nostril), then the throat and sinuses may feel very dry, perhaps even a feeling of light-headedness or a feeling of "too much probiotics" for a few hours up to a day. That is why it is better to use less, not more at once. As I've said many times, what we've done is self-experimentation with these sinusitis treatments.

 

[Allele]

My sinuses felt so much better once I did the rinse this morning with plain saline water. The Bactoferm water was burning the sinuses. I've never been able to use my pot too often as I end up with ear ache after using several days in a row.

I have found when using a neti pot it is important to go to great lengths to flush all the water out afterwards, especially if you are doing the deeper version where you pull it down the back of the throat.

But you have to be able to bend w/ the head upside down and use a fair amount of breath, which isn't really a thing for us
You can do it from sitting but the head going up and down and the staccato breathing isn't nice for OI/PEM issues.

In the days before illness when I was regularly neti-potting, I would flush by exhaling vigorously through the nose repeatedly into tissues from standing upright, bend at the waist w head pointed down and then exhale repeatedly into more tissues while upside down, then stand upright again and blow, and so on, repeating until no more water. (Each time it seems like there's no more water, but then you change positions and more gushes out.)

I would do this blowing with both nostrils, then alternating one at a time, etc until no more water. You can tilt the head to each side while upside down too. It's incredible how much more comes out when you go from upside down to upright and vise versa.

Anyhow, there's my little spontaneous essay on how to avoid earaches and other problems if you're fit enough to do it.
I reallly cannot do this any more, so I rarely use the neti pot now. On the rare occasions I do, I at least do a round or two from sitting to make sure there's not a ton of water left in the sinuses.

And p.s. TigerLilea, do you use just water and bactoferm in the neti pot? I mean, I don't know if salt water is bad for the little guys, but flushing with regular unsalted water is itself really ouchy!

 

[dannybex]

@Webdog Have you ever been able to figure out what triggers your sinusitis in the first place? Mine always happens around this time of the year and I'm still trying to figure out what causes it.

If it appears around a certain time of year it may be related to some allergen or allergens. Perhaps not the outdoor ones, but indoors like dust, dust mites, etc. If you have to keep your windows closed more because of cold weather that might be the case.

I tend to agree w/@Allele -- that maybe the increased inflammation/stuffiness could be due to toxins released (perhaps a herxheimer thing), which in addition to what she said, may also include a histamine-type reaction. Ironically, the amino acid l-histidine, which many link with histamine problems, helps me when my sinuses get too "inflamed" or blocked up. This paper is ancient (or at least older than I am), but talks about the benefits of histidine for allergies. A google search will turn up more uses of histidine when it comes to food intolerances.

Also, in my case, I'm assuming (besides the dust mite component) that my infection is fungal, mainly because antibiotics 3+ years ago were of no help, and because even the mossy ol' Mayo Clinic found that an overwhelming majority of chronic sinusitis was caused by fungal infections.

http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)64808-8/abstract

 

[TigerLilea]

I have found when using a neti pot it is important to go to great lengths to flush all the water out afterwards, especially if you are doing the deeper version where you pull it down the back of the throat.

I was trying not to flush out all of the water as I wanted to keep as much of the probiotic in my sinuses as possible. Also I was careful not to get it down my throat as it contains trace amounts of manganese sulfate monohydrate.

And p.s. TigerLilea, do you use just water and bactoferm in the neti pot? I mean, I don't know if salt water is bad for the little guys, but flushing with regular unsalted water is itself really ouchy!

I didn't add salt to the water as I read that salt acts as an antibacterial and could possibly kill off the l. sakei so I didn't want to take any chances. That could be part of the reason my sinuses hurt so bad as I don't get pain when using saline. However, I do think that the Bacto contributed to it as I felt much better after I did the saline rinse this morning.

 

[TigerLilea]

If it appears around a certain time of year it may be related to some allergen or allergens. Perhaps not the outdoor ones, but indoors like dust, dust mites, etc. If you have to keep your windows closed more because of cold weather that might be the case.

A doctor I saw at a walk-in clinic a few years ago feels pretty sure that it is allergies that are causing my sinus issues. I think it is probably food related but I've yet to figure out to what. I keep my windows open year round so I don't think it is dust or mites that are the issue. As one doctor said to me it has to be something that I do or am around only certain times of the year.

Also, in my case, I'm assuming (besides the dust mite component) that my infection is fungal, mainly because antibiotics 3+ years ago were of no help, and because even the mossy ol' Mayo Clinic found that an overwhelming majority of chronic sinusitis was caused by fungal infections.

This research from the Mayo goes back 18 years and I believe that they have now decided that fungus isn't the issue after all.

 

[dannybex]

Yeah, it's really tricky because there can be so many different factors, not to mention the concept of cross-reactivity. Anyway, FWIW, here's a good overview on probiotics and allergies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3784923/

 

[oldtimer]

I've had a dry feeling high up in my nose for years, sometimes to the point of stinging pain. At the same time there was what I assume was a reaction to the irritation: a runny nose that didn't help the dryness. I just blamed it on possible sjogren's syndrome. Saline spray worked better than anything but it wasn't until I had a CT scan in preparation for a dental implant that the reason became clear. My sinuses are full of polyps. With everything else going on it's a relatively minor inconvenience so I'm learning to love my polyps - for now

 

[dannybex]

My sinuses are full of polyps. With everything else going on it's a relatively minor inconvenience so I'm learning to love my polyps - for now

There's a possible connection between salicylate intolerance and nasal polyps. I have a few polyps and a possible salicylate intolerance -- at least to certain high-sal foods. Here's an overview:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2696737/

"Rhinitis, asthma and nasal polyposis are typical presentations..."

And an anecdotal report here:

http://www.foodsmatter.com/allergy_intolerance/salicylate/articles/nasal-polyps-01-15.html

 

[oldtimer]

There's a possible connection between salicylate intolerance and nasal polyps. I have a few polyps and a possible salicylate intolerance -- at least to certain high-sal foods. Here's an overview:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2696737/

"Rhinitis, asthma and nasal polyposis are typical presentations..."

And an anecdotal report here:

http://www.foodsmatter.com/allergy_intolerance/salicylate/articles/nasal-polyps-01-15.html

Thanks very much dannybex. I can't read it just now but can't wait to see what it's about

 

[perchance dreamer]

It felt like the walls of my sinus held on to some of the water making me feel even worse than before.

@Rosie, I couldn't live without irrigating my sinuses, but I know what you mean about needing to get the water out when you finish. I get the water out afterward by leaning against the bathroom counter and leaning down as if I'm going to touch my toes. I bend my knees so I don't put pressure on my back. Quite a bit of water comes out with my head in this position and when I slowly bring my head back up.

After that, I lie in my zero gravity recliner. When I"m all the way reclined in this chair, the rest of the water comes out after a few minutes. If you don't have a recliner, you could try lying with your head a bit elevated.

 

[perchance dreamer]

Also, in my case, I'm assuming (besides the dust mite component) that my infection is fungal, mainly because antibiotics 3+ years ago were of no help, and because even the mossy ol' Mayo Clinic found that an overwhelming majority of chronic sinusitis was caused by fungal infections.

I always get cultured before my ENT prescribes treatment. My last culture showed both bacteria and fungus.

 

[perchance dreamer]

So instead, I tried 3 different methods to get the probiotic to get deep to the nasapharynx:

1. Mixing the powder with water and used a rubber Ear Washing Syringe Squeeze Bulb to squirt the liquid deep into my nose.
   
2. Snorting the dry powder (usually off a spoon, use a finger to close the other nostril).
   
3. Snorting the dry powder through a straw or paper tube (just like you see on tv crime shows!).

@Webdog, I'm going to try this probiotic. I'll try snorting it first since it works for you, or maybe start off with the Q-tip, as the doctor in the video does. I must say I thought the 80s would be the last time I snorted powder in my nose! Thanks for detailing all this.

 

[TigerLilea]

I always get cultured before my ENT prescribes treatment. My last culture showed both bacteria and fungus.

When I asked about getting my sinuses cultured, the ENT told me that the only way to do it was in the OR under anesthesia.

 

[TigerLilea]

So instead, I tried 3 different methods to get the probiotic to get deep to the nasapharynx:

1. Mixing the powder with water and used a rubber Ear Washing Syringe Squeeze Bulb to squirt the liquid deep into my nose.
   
2. Snorting the dry powder (usually off a spoon, use a finger to close the other nostril).
   
3. Snorting the dry powder through a straw or paper tube (just like you see on tv crime shows!).

All 3 methods seem to work pretty well. Wet and dry both seem effective. Try different methods; see what works for you.

How often? From 1-3 times a day. I also varied the amount of powder I used. When my sinuses were more congested I increased the amount and frequency of treatments. If irritation or excessive soreness developed, I decreased the treatments.

@Webdog After thinking about this the past few days, I'm now wondering if possibly you are using too much and too often. Ken Lassesen (CFS Remission) recommends changing probiotics each week. And Lacto-Bacto recommends stopping after four days and going a few days without the probiotics to see if there is any improvement.

You run the risk of having the l. sakei taking over and decreasing the other good bacteria in your sinuses. You don't want to interfere with the symbiosis of your microbiome.

 

[perchance dreamer]

When I asked about getting my sinuses cultured, the ENT told me that the only way to do it was in the OR under anesthesia.

I just get mine cultured at the ENT's office. It's uncomfortable, but quick. It's odd your ENT would tell you that.

 

[Webdog]

@Webdog After thinking about this the past few days, I'm now wondering if possibly you are using too much and too often. Ken Lassesen (CFS Remission) recommends changing probiotics each week. And Lacto-Bacto recommends stopping after four days and going a few days without the probiotics to see if there is any improvement.

You run the risk of having the l. sakei taking over and decreasing the other good bacteria in your sinuses. You don't want to interfere with the symbiosis of your microbiome.

I agree with you. Just like the video, once I finished the packet after a month, I stopped. I've been off the L. Sakei for a week now.

I did reorder another L. Sakei packet to have some on hand, as the manufacturer says it can be stored in the freezer up to 5 months.

After stopping the L. Sakei, I started up a different nasal probiotic (taken orally) with multiple strains to fill in any reduced microbiome. This probiotic contains "N-Acetyl-Cysteine (NAC), Bifidobacterium bifidum Lactobacillus acidophilus Lactobacillus rhamnosus Streptococcus thermophilus".

So my sinus experiment continues.

My sinuses continue much improved, however I'm still sleeping a lot more than usual and am more housebound than usual.

 

[TigerLilea]

however I'm still sleeping a lot more than usual and am more housebound than usual.

I'm sleeping much more than usual right now but that is due to a virus that is going around. At first I wasn't sure if it was the Bactoferm or not, but so many people around me have the same thing so I'm pretty sure it's the virus causing me to be extra fatigued and sleeping long hours at night.

 

[AliceLily]

@Rosie,

I couldn't live without irrigating my sinuses, but I know what you mean about needing to get the water out when you finish. I get the water out afterward by leaning against the bathroom counter and leaning down as if I'm going to touch my toes. I bend my knees so I don't put pressure on my back. Quite a bit of water comes out with my head in this position and when I slowly bring my head back up.

After that, I lie in my zero gravity recliner. When I"m all the way reclined in this chair, the rest of the water comes out after a few minutes. If you don't have a recliner, you could try lying with your head a bit elevated.

@perchance dreamer . Thanks.

I had lots of problems with retention in my sinuses in my severe years. I had to go on antibiotics for six months straight because my sinuses were exhausted and pretty much non functioning.

I also have to be careful how I turn my head and how I extend it. I made myself violently sick in my first year of severe ME after tilting my head over the side of the bed. I had read in a book that this helps but I think I threw my head back too fast and I was very sick a minute later.

I should try the neti pot again but will try it when my sinuses are more settled because I feel so much worse when they don't drain properly.