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ME and MS show remarkable levels of similarity in phenomenology and neuroimmune characteristics

Discussion in 'BioMedical ME/CFS News' started by adambeyoncelowe, Apr 4, 2018.

  1. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This is a few years old, but really highlights the similarities between these two illnesses (and thus makes the difference in treatments more stark).

    Does anybody with any understanding of the specifics here have any comments? What do we think: is ME like MS? Certainly, the early literature compares them. Are there any glaring errors or assumptions here? Does another model (rather than the neuroimmune one) fit better?
     
  2. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  3. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes, I know, I've seen the comparisons. I wasn't saying ME is identical to MS, I'm just wondering whether other people agree that they're essentially the same type of illness. Byron Hyde, for instance, puts ME, MS and post-polio syndrome together. The 'functional' crew put ME, FM and IBS together. Those are the most stark examples of how different people understand the illness differently.
     
  4. Webdog

    Webdog Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    For myself, I have a lot in common with MS. I find very little in common with fibromyalgia or IBS. This might make an interesting poll.
     
    EzzieD and adambeyoncelowe like this.
  5. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @adambeyoncelowe I'm sure there are similarities (relapsing-remitting) with MS and post polio syndrome. But whatever is causing PEM in ME is not happening with MS. Exercise improves cognitive and physical function in MS.

    I don't have pain, IBS or improved symptoms with exercise.
     
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  6. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    MS also has bladder and GI issues, too, of course, so there is overlap. It's more about the modelling of aetiology and pathology.

    My partner's mother has MS, and our symptoms are so similar. One big difference is that her remission periods are very clear and distinct, whereas we with ME seem to have a baseline of illness every day, even when we're not crashing. That may be due to treatment, though.
     
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  7. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Also, yes, a poll might help, but I'm pretty sure most people will prefer a neuroimmune categorisation than a 'functional' one.

    I do wonder if many of the more severe ME patients instead get an atypical MS diagnosis, since neurologists don't usually expect to see CNS damage in ME (despite some evidence of this).
     
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  8. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I remember people being concerned that this paper rather over-stated the case on some of the issues with ME/CFS. I've had some interactions with Gerwyn Morris that left me less than impressed in the past.
     
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  9. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The M.E specialist I saw 26 years ago suspected MS because of the relapsing nature of my illness. I was referred to a neurologist who eventually r/o MS. I was diagnosed with atypical M.E. I'm not sure that I have CNS damage.
     
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  10. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes, I understand the specifics @adambeyoncelowe. This review is just plain wrong. As I understand it Morris is a patient with some science experience who teamed up with Maes whose immunology is based on very old and muddled themes without any convincing evidence. This is a bit like an undergraduate student publishing an essay based on a few hours in the library. I hate being so negative all the time but there is a lot to the old saying 'empty vessels make most noise'. The real scientist in the ME field do not publish much because they want to have something substantive before they do.

    This review gets quoted by all sorts of people dipping in to the ME field. I am afraid it is a good index that the dippers don't have much grasp of immunology. There are no significant similarities between ME and MS as far as I can see other than that the symptoms may seem similar if you do not take a careful medical history.

    One thing that is interesting is that the second peak age of onset for ME is the same as the peak for MS. That might mean that there is some neurodevelopment factor that is relevant to both illnesses. I don't think it has anything to do with oxidative stress or mitochondrial dysfunction or anything else we currently know about.
     
  11. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That's good to know at least. Obviously, presented as it has been, the comparisons look stronger than they are.
     

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