Magnesium

[Arnie Pye]

But it sounds as though the body keeps magnesium levels in the blood quite constant - so maybe serum levels don't say much about levels in the tissue?

Source for the following table :

Magnesium Basics





I have read that the body prioritises magnesium in the blood and will get it from other parts of the body when it runs short. So testing isn't very reliable, whether it is done on whole blood or just the red cells.

 

[Mij]

Exatest lab measures magnesium and other minerals in the cells, not RBC.

 

[Hutan]

About the burning sensation, I've had that too. I bought a bottle of magnesium oil and tried it - and then did some research and became disillusioned and sprinkled the rest round my citrus trees.

Just like the lack of evidence for MgCl solutions being absorbed, I haven't yet found a good explanation for the burning. There's no evidence for the idea that it burns if you are deficient in Mg. One common explanation all over the many sites authoritatively saying magnesium oil is great is that it is because of the pH, because it is very different to the pH of skin. Some say the pH is around 7.5. That's nearly like water, so that makes no sense. Others say it is weakly acid - but so is the skin, so that makes no sense either.

Another theory authoritatively given on the natural health websites: Magnesium oil acts as the vasodilator that relaxes muscle cells and increases blood flow in capillaries, and that's what causes the stinging sensation. But, that would require the magnesium to be getting to the muscle cells and capillaries, and there isn't evidence for that.

 

[Mij]

@Hutan

Are you saying that you have burning sensations after applying mg oil? I feel prickly sensations on my skin, but that comes from the salts of mg, it's very uncomfortable. I water it down with more water after 20 minutes.

 

[Hutan]

Yes, a mild burning feeling.

So, apparently you can make your own magnesium oil from a cup of magnesium chloride crystal dissolved in a cup of distilled water. That's pretty concentrated. But, there are Safety Data Sheets for Magnesium chloride solutions. When it's not packaged up with 'healing, relaxing' words all over it, it's an industrial chemical with Material Safety Data Sheets

e.g.

Causes skin irritation.
Causes serious eye irritation.
May cause respiratory irritation.

e.g.

Inhalation: Material may be an irritant to mucous membranes and respiratory tract.

Skin contact: Contact with skin may result in irritation. A skin sensitiser. Repeated or prolonged skin contact may lead to allergic contact dermatitis.

Ingestion: Swallowing can result in nausea, vomiting and irritation of the gastrointestinal tract.

Eye contact: May be an eye irritant

 

[Mij]

@Hutan

There might be a difference between 'food grade' mg chloride and the regular compound.

I buy all my bulk organic spices, sea veggies, coconut oil, olive oil et from this store once a year. I noticed that they sold 'food grade' mg chloride flakes that is ok for consumption too. On their website they give instructions on how to make Mg oil:

https://www.omfoods.com/products/miscellaneous-magnesium-chloride-nigari-flakes

There is also an epsom salts compound that you can drink for constipation, you have to ask the pharmacist for it b/c they keep it behind the counter. The regular epsom salts used for baths contains impurities. That's my understanding.

 

[NelliePledge]

I find Epsom salt baths relaxing on muscles no negative effects. I haven’t managed baths for quite a few weeks tho just shower. The warm water shower makes muscles feel less achy but I reckon the soaking in salts in the bath makes more of a difference.

I also take magnesium supplements and it is pretty much the only one I have ever noticed feeling worse when I had run out, took me a few days to realise.

 

[Hutan]

There might be a difference between 'food grade' mg chloride and the regular compound.

I buy all my bulk organic spices, sea veggies, coconut oil, olive oil et from this store once a year. I noticed that they sold 'food grade' mg chloride flakes that is ok for consumption too. On their website they give instructions on how to make Mg oil:

https://www.omfoods.com/products/miscellaneous-magnesium-chloride-nigari-flakes

While it's true that something labelled 'food grade' is likely to be purer than something that isn't, it seems it isn't the contaminants that is causing the stinging. The linked retailer of the food grade Mg chloride notes 'avoid sensitive skin areas to reduce stinging sensation'. That retailer is better than most, as they only say 'possible benefits' and 'may be useful'. The retailer though suggests putting it into a spray bottle. That seems risky to me given the classification of the magnesium chloride brine as an irritant, especially to eyes and lungs.

However, there seems to be a lot of support here on the forum for oral magnesium supplementation. And there are perhaps biological mechanisms that might make a benefit plausible. See for example this paper
Possible therapeutic effect of magnesium in ocular diseases, 2019
Many of the buzzwords for ME/CFS are mentioned - nitric oxide, calcium channels, endothelial nitric oxide synthase ...
(although I think there are problems with Figure 1- it says Mg induces nitric oxide synthase in epithelial cells, but the diagram shows Mg deceasing NOS2, and that Mg reduces ATP while the diagram shows it increasing ATP).

That paper concludes

The ability of magnesium to attenuate epithelial oxidative stress and neuronal inflammation suggests its possible role in the management of ocular diseases. Despite a few trials of short-term duration and small sample size, a detailed study on the effect of magnesium in ocular diseases is warranted.

I think that's what I conclude about magnesium for now too. There are hints of it being useful, but no solid evidence. Even if it's just because lots of people with ME/CFS are spending money on magnesium supplementation, there should be a decent blinded trial of oral magnesium.

That paper about magnesium in ocular diseases notes risks from magnesium supplementation:

Supplementations of magnesium with a serum concentration of 4.2–6.3 mg/dL (1.74–2.61 mmol/L) may result diarrhea, gastrointestinal disturbances, hypotension, confusion, lethargy, muscle weakness, disturbances in normal cardiac rhythm and deterioration of kidney function [14], [63]. Severe hypermagnesemia may also lead to cardiac arrest [64].

 

[Hutan]

Interpreting Magnesium Status to Enhance Clinical Care – Key Indicators, 2017
That paper is interesting, especially if you were planning an Mg supplementation study. There's a good analysis of various ways of determining Mg status (deficiency or otherwise), and also of the time taken for supplementation to produce a new stable level.

The association of Mg deficiency with various chronic diseases might just be because a diet low in Mg is probably a diet low in green vegetables and other good things.

Magnesium has been characterized as a shortfall nutrient of public health concern in America [18*]. Data from prospective cohort studies and small focused randomized controlled trials show strong correlation of Mg deficiency with increased risk of several chronic diseases, some of which exist as co-morbidities. The data are convincing that there may be a relationship, but we do not know the type of relationship. The papers linking low Mg to disease in this review are all associative data (except for blood pressure). What is needed to advance the field are Mg supplementation studies to test whether the association is causal.

However, a simple, rapid, and reliable single measurement to determine the presence of Mg deficiency is lacking. Each of the three most commonly used indicators of magnesium status has shortcomings. The serum reference range is questionable in individuals with Mg concentrations between 0.75 and 0.85 mmol/L as possibly deficient. Dietary Reference Intakes apparently need revision and likely change with body weight. Urinary Mg responds too quickly to changes in dietary Mg intakes. However, because each status indicator can be strengthened by the addition of one or both of the other indicators, a combination of all three indicators would be the most practical method to assess Mg status.

 

[Arnie Pye]

I was under the impression that getting stinging from topical magnesium supplements and sprays was an indication that magnesium levels were low. Once magnesium levels are no longer deficient then the stinging should reduce or go away.

These links might be of general interest for people interested in magnesium:

https://www.sevenminerals.com/blogs/health-center/magnesium-itching-why-does-magnesium-oil-sting

https://drjockers.com/best-magnesium-supplement/

 

[Mij]

The reasons they give for mg oil stinging doesn't make much sense to me, the claims they make are almost bizarre tbh.

They go on to advertise "no sting magnesium bath flakes". Would that mean you're not deficient or that it's not helping?


#1 Choose a magnesium product more suitable for sensitive skin
Instead of directly applying magnesium oil to your skin, you can choose a product that may be more suitable for sensitive skin, such as magnesium flakes or magnesium oil with aloe vera.

No I use an aloe vera mg base gel and the 'itchiness', prickly sensation is just as irritating. Sometimes it itches and sometimes it doesn't within the SAME week. So the 'higher the itchiness the more deficient" claim they make is nonsense.

 

[Mij]

Many pwME experience vertigo/vestibular disturbances and vertigo migraine that might be an indication of mg deficiencies.

 

[JemPD]

I bathe in magnesium flakes & i must say a soak in that or dead sea salts does seem to calm & relax me a lot more than a bath with regular bubbles, which may of course be pure placebo! I rinse my 'delicate areas' afterwards, but have never experiences irritation. Magnesium 'oil' itches like crazy but it doesn't sting me, i gave up on it because its such a faff & i hate the feel of it so it needs rinsing off, too much effort.

I'm under the impression that you cant overdose on mg so ive not been concerned about the fact that I also do take it orally but only because it's in combination with calcium, boron, zinc, K2 & D3 as a bone support formula that i was advised to take for osteopenia.

I think the idea about it only stinging if you're deficient is likely a pseudoscientific thing like 'if you get a headache on your 'juice cleanse' it means its working and your body is releasing toxins into the blood to be cleared' type of thing. The evidence for it seems to be that it stops stinging/itching after a while, but that could easily just be desensitisation after your skin has become used to it.

But of course, as always i may be wrong

ETA: i started on it because back in the day (ie when i was newly dx & not wise to the quackery) i consulted Dr Myhill who did a blood test 'red cell megnesium', which showed 'very low', but given how alarmingly pseudoscientific & poor her advice seems to be on other things i scrapped paying attention to it, but i carry on with the baths for enjoyment sake.

 

[Amw66]

How do hair tests for magnesium fare? Provides a measurement indicative of longer time period and may be interesting as it not blood based .

I can remember cortisol being assessed via hair for one study discussed here and pre CAC scans seemingly hair testing was used for calcium levels ( advised by a bioscience/ chemistry lecturer years ago )

 

[Arnie Pye]

How do hair tests for magnesium fare?

I have no faith in hair tests at all, no matter what is being tested. In my opinion, there is probably too much risk of shampoo, conditioner, hair spray and other hair products contaminating the results. Also if someone uses air freshener at home and walks through it it might affect the results, and also anyone walking beside a road with traffic might cause problems from exhaust fumes. No doubt there could be other problems I haven't thought of.

This is just my opinion, and I'm sure there are people who would disagree with me, but I would be hard to convince that hair tests were reliable.

 

[Sasha]

Does anyone have any thoughts on pico- and nano-magnesium in water, supposedly highly absorbable (orally) directly into the bloodstream and into cells through the mucosa because of their small size, such as this stuff and this stuff?

 

[Arnie Pye]

I don't have any thoughts on those except that they seem to be very expensive.

A couple of years ago I bought a 500g bag of magnesium citrate powder (food grade) for under £10 from Ebay or Amazon. I take it at a dose of quarter of a level teaspoon in orange juice. I keep it in a plastic box with an airtight lid, and I still have loads left.

Ebay had a much greater list of choices and prices than Amazon when I looked today.

 

[Sasha]

I don't have any thoughts on those except that they seem to be very expensive.

A couple of years ago I bought a 500g bag of magnesium citrate powder (food grade) for under £10 from Ebay or Amazon. I take it at a dose of quarter of a level teaspoon in orange juice. I keep it in a plastic box with an airtight lid, and I still have loads left.

Ebay had a much greater list of choices and prices than Amazon when I looked today.

Thanks, Arnie. I think they're expensive because they've undergone a different kind of process.

I have reason to think that I can't absorb magnesium very well through the gut and so the ordinary stuff isn't going to help me much (and hasn't).

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Does anyone have any thoughts on pico- and nano-magnesium in water, supposedly highly absorbable (orally) directly into the bloodstream and into cells through the mucosa because of their small size, such as this stuff and this stuff?

As far as I am aware the smallest size you can get for magnesium is a single magnesium ion. Hard to see how you can have half an ion!
Epsom salts dissolved in water comes as magnesium ions. They attract water molecules around them but so they will in any aqueous solution.

Magnesium ions will be absorbed much quicker than magnesium hydroxide particles as milk of magnesia but nobody takes that as a way to supplement magnesium as far as I know.

A nanometre is roughly the size of a single hydrated magnesium ion. A picometre is smaller than a single atom so I don't know what that is supposed to be about.

 

[perchance dreamer]

Lactate is the best form of magnesium for me. The powder seems more potent than capsules. I use Premier Research's Magnesium Powder, which is lactate. I order it from Amazon.