Magnesium

But is that right?

As far as I am aware clinical magnesium deficiency is largely limited to specific conditions where it will be expected - like severe renal disease or malabsorption. I don't see any reason to think PWME are likely to need to take magnesium.

That looks highly implausible. The paper Hutan quotes confirms the as a highly hydrated ion magnesium in solution is not going to cross the epidermis much. And if it does it will first reach dermis and dermal circulation and be cleared. It is pretty well impossible for it to have a therapeutic effect on a muscle deeper down without spreading everywhere else.

It always shocked me that topical non-steroidal drugs like diclofenac were allowed when the evidence for them being able to target the painful site specifically was zero and transdermal absorption was so unpredictable that it would be expected to be far more toxic than oral use. People used to rub on enough cream that, if it were absorbed into the bloodstream they would have much higher levels than what was allowed by oral dosing. And it was known that things like GI haemorrhage were at least partly die to systemic levels.

 

A few years back, I was advised to take magnesium by a fatigue clinic practitioner. I never did as I wasn't told why I should or pointed to any evidence that explained the reasoning.

I've recently had some blood tests back, which demonstrate very high elevated creatine kinase and lactate, which could result from several things, including neuromuscular. I'm now wondering if the magnesium recommendations could be linked?

 

Magnesium is one of the few supplements which makes a difference for us .

The type may be important.

My aunt did magnesium injections and these made a difference in terms of energy but also they appeared to reduce heart palpitations at night. ( Stopped and restarted to check this whilst maintaining the same diet for 4 weeks) . I know quite a few who inject and tell me this is the only way they feel benefit. Cheney found this I think .

We can't do magnesium transdermally . My daughter described it as like 3rd degree burns. Seemingly this means you are deficient.

We used citrate and malate and have used a buffered version too but swallowing and gut issues mean that we are using liquid and Epsom salts.We have also cut supplements down to a minimum.
For us it does make a difference.

We did the Myhill ATP test early on. Whilst now discredited , I found it interesting in that the " energy score" results corresponded accurately to the Bell disability scale.
The Magnesium aspect of this test found very low levels of magnesium.

My understanding is that like calcium , magnesium blood levels are fairly constant ( perhaps related to maintaining cardiac function ) and it can be pulled from tissues to maintain a datum in blood. This may be wrong - I picked it up from somewhere early on and it has kind of stuck in my memory.

Tissues may be a different matter.

ETA - if calcium channels are affected then this might provide an explanation for magnesium
ETA ,changed vitd to calcium per @Midnattsol comment

 

Yes thanks @Midnattsol. Now having my morning coffee to kick-start my brain

 

I took injections back in early 2000 for a couple of years to bring up my mg stores.

This is the 'evidence' I based my usage on. I use mg chloride transdermal aloe gel twice a week for the last 12 years.

I trust the results from ExaTest who have no financial interest.

https://www.ancient-minerals.com/transdermal-magnesium/

Upon being introduced to the potential of liquid soaks for magnesium and natural DHEA stimulation, Dr. Shealy, a trained neuroscientist and medical researcher who studied at Duke University, performed experiments to test the ability of the skin to absorb magnesium.

Sixteen individuals with low intracellular magnesium levels were enlisted in his study. Participants were instructed to perform a 20 minute foot-soak daily with transdermal magnesium chloride bath flakes, in additional to spraying their entire body once daily with magnesium oil. Intracellular magnesium levels were assessed on all participants after 4 weeks, utilizing a diagnostic called ExaTest. The results – 12 of the 16 participants in the study showed marked improvements in their intracellular magnesium levels.

Averaged diagnostic results after 4 weeks of daily body spraying and foot soaks:

Electrolyte Name: Before: After: Reference Range:

 

I agree with JE that there is no reason to assume that pwME in particular have low mg stores, malabsorption issues are not uncommon for pw chronic illnesses. I had/have many other deficiencies, not just mg.

An interesting thing I observed back in the late 90s and early 2000s is that my Mg stores dropped quickly when I started running again. My health was improving but I started experiencing PEM. I didn't understand what PEM was back then so I continued to run after I 'recovered'.

@Jonathan Edwards is there a possibility that aerobic exercise uses up more Mg for pwME to fuel ATP? I spoke to a biochemist during a consultation and he advised me to stop aerobic exercise based on my OAT, but he said to absolutely continue mg/taurine shots for a while longer.

 

I use a capsule called 'ZMA' - which is a mix of magnesium (citrate I think), zinc and B6.

It improves my sleep, in general.

I've gone from sleeping 2-4 hours most nights to sleeping 5-6, sometimes longer (one night recently was 13 hours in bed as well as about 3 hours on the sofa). As well as duration sleep quality also feels better.

I also tend to get to sleep much faster, generally within an hour, if it's going to happen, where it used to commonly be several hours before I could fall asleep.

The only other supplement I am currently taking is D3, but I am also taking prescribed meds as well, a statin, blood pressure meds (calcium channel something and something else), a diabetes med with a weird and unrememberable name, but the thing I am led to believe may impact on magnesium is co-codamol.

My diet 'should' give me enough magnesium, but it's possible, according to probably woo woo science, that the co-codamol is sucking it out of me

Regardless...it seems to help, with sleep anyway.

 

I happened to be looking up TPPP gene, i.e. since it turned up in a recent (small) GWAS study in ME/CFS*, and I noticed that magnesium got a mention:

"Entrez Gene Summary for TPPP Gene

• Enables several functions, including GTPase activity; magnesium ion binding activity; and protein homodimerization activity. Involved in several processes, including microtubule cytoskeleton organization; negative regulation of tubulin deacetylation; and positive regulation of protein polymerization. Located in several cellular components, including mitochondrion; mitotic spindle; and perinuclear region of cytoplasm. Colocalizes with microtubule and microtubule bundle. [provided by Alliance of Genome Resources, Nov 2021]"
  https://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=TPPP

*thread here:
https://www.s4me.info/threads/genet...ential-risk-loci-2022-hajdarevic-et-al.25070/

 

I also sleep really well when I'm taking magnesium supplements. I get to sleep within about 15 minutes and if I wake up during the night I get back to sleep within 10 minutes. The only problem is that after a few weeks of taking magnesium every night I can't stay awake during the day. I can't think. I can't function. Therefore, I can't take magnesium supplements on a daily basis. Now I take them once or twice per week. I know someone else who has the same problem and her Nephrologist told her that some people have that problem with supplemental minerals.

 

@Hutan thanks. I missed that. I don't absorb supplements so will continue with the transdermal application.

It's possible that it does absorb somewhat? The abstract that was posted does show lower calcium and potassium status after 6 weeks from applying mg chloride. This is exactly what happened to me when I took mg shots for almost 2 years.

I bought a liter of mg chloride around 10 years ago and only half way through, so it's not costing me much.

 

Something is being absorbed, or leached, at least in my case.

Using mg salts in a bath causes me to be edgy, anxious, whatever the word is.

Not using them, in the same bath, that doesn't happen.

So something is being transfered one way or the other.

 

My heart started racing really fast when I added 2 cups of epsom salts to my bath water. At first I thought it was the warm water, but that racing didn't occur with water on it's own. I'm not sure what that was all about so I stopped taking epsom salt baths and just use the transdermal.

 

From his website. The all caps and exclamations marks

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