as I understand it, this is a fact-finding inquiry and not a guilt-determining one. I'm not quite sure what the difference is, but this is very explicitly not a criminal proceeding. Perhaps if real liability is establshed, that would be next. I don't know.
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Maeve Boothby O'Neill - articles about her life, death and inquest
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as I understand it, this is a fact-finding inquiry and not a guilt-determining one. I'm not quite sure what the difference is, but this is very explicitly not a criminal proceeding. Perhaps if real liability is establshed, that would be next. I don't know.
Jonathan Edwards
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Maybe this is in a particular sub-category but my understanding is that an inquest would decide between, for instance, natural causes, misadventure and unlawful killing, without needing to specify who was guilty of what crime.
MrMagoo
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
It’s not public record so the public don’t know until on the day. A request for a list by another poster was refused by the court.
MrMagoo
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
It’s an inquest into Maeve’s death so there are set outcomes -natural causes, accidental, lawful/unlawful killing, open verdict, industrial disease, narrative verdict.
The Coroner then makes a report if necessary to the appropriate person or authority, I think that could be the HealthMinister or NHS CEO,
https://www.bereavementadvice.org/topics/death-certificate-and-coroners-inquest/coroners-inquests/#
Kitty
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Quite often with cases like this it's an open or narrative verdict.
The coroner can also make a Prevention of Future Deaths report if s/he considers it likely that preventive action could have avoided the death.
MrMagoo
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Now that is interesting…
Would the referral be to the crown prosecution service for consideration of gross negligence
Kitty
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Gross negligence isn't always criminal, so I'm not sure.
I'd be a bit surprised if there were strong enough evidence of criminal intent to bring a case.
MrMagoo
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
W need a legal person to explain the possibilities, but this Coroner has a plan and knows exactly where this is headed. Hopefully by raising it with NHS it means were it to happen again, it would be Unlawful Killing as they’d been put on notice at the highest level that these failings aren’t ok.
alktipping
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I guess the narrative of the coroner will point to systemic failures and as usual little or nothing will be done. When their are no consequences for incompetence in medicine they will just continue with the same practices only patients end up paying via worse outcomes.
Im not sure gross negligence requires intent. It requires gross deviation from a reasonable standard of behaviour where there’s a duty of care. Well I just read this wiki article (see the final paragraph under criminal negligence which seems pertinent)so no doubt it is far more complex but…. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_negligence
MrMagoo
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I don’t think they’re looking at prosecuting an individual, I don’t think gross negligence manslaughter would hold up, but I think the NHS/Government is going to get a serious rocket up the backside over this. I pray that @Jonathan Edwards excellent feeding paper is adopted as a protocol or something. The NHS have to be clear that making wishy-washy claims about “there’s no ME services” doesn’t excuse their duty of care. As do local councils, Adult Services/Care services.
I think TPN is expensive, hence they don’t like to give it.
Kitty
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Thing is, people made bad calls, or are crap at their jobs, or are biased, or are stymied by poor management practices, structural issues, or lack of training. Good people who're trying to do their best get overruled or are ignored. It must be rare for a coroner to be able to rule unlawful killing in a case of organisational incompetence, however egregious a failure it is.
Compensation for mistakes and failings can be pursued through the courts, but it's civil rather than criminal litigation. However, as the NHS spends quite a lot of money on this, fear of future claims might be as effective an agent of change as anything else.
We can only hope.
MrMagoo
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I mean, the threat of being sued is really the only hammer left to crack this nut.
I think if there were specific guidance as a result of this, and it wasn’t followed, and someone died it could be unlawful killing?
Legal entities like companies can be prosecuted under health and safety law, I believe there is such a thing as corporate manslaughter so I don’t think it has to be aimed at any individual.
eta for example There is a review of maternity services at Nottingham (not a public enquiry) and alongside that Nottingham Police have opened a criminal investigation.
eta for example There is a review of maternity services at Nottingham (not a public enquiry) and alongside that Nottingham Police have opened a criminal investigation.
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RainbowCloud
Established Member (Voting Rights)
Suggests some very effective groundwork.
Kitty
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Yep. It's such a horrifying story that journalists would likely have been picked up on it anyway, but Sean O'Neill's a colleague and his paper's a rival.
As the articles seem to have done very well for page views, the story's got a good chance of holding onto a place on the editorial priority list.
MrMagoo
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
It seems Dr Strain is giving evidence this morning. He is a Consultant and also a Snr lecturer at Exeter Uni Medical School and advisor to Action for ME.In June 2021 Maeve had been put on an eating disorder ward.
NG tube was considered, but she couldn’t tolerate sitting at 45degrees so it wasn’t given. Risk of sepsis if she were to have TPN so not given.
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